To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

No need for the OP to be the 'bearer of bad news'.

If asked a direct question, it’s difficult to avoid - and she would then be blamed when teachers have a different opinion.

Given the U.K. application process, It’s not a question with an ambiguous answer.

That shouldn’t be a problem because there are plenty of other Higher Education options, and she can still work hard and get good grades and if necessary re-apply.

@mathanxiety Why waste her time applying to Unis she does not have the grades for? Maybe if she improves markedly then fine, but it's her choice so family pushing "I want her to go to Oxbridge" well, yeah, no-one ever thought their kid would be brilliant and attend Bedfordshire or London Met, but if their abilities are at a certain level then apply for what is reasonable.

I’m really sorry but it just IS what they do.

A lot of “ insiders” are telling you so. The truth is that once you are at one or the other, you don’t bother to talk about the other much; and if you do it’s usually as in “ I’m going to the conference at Cambridge next week,” so the portmanteau term wouldn’t make sense . Nor would it make sense to say: “ I study at Oxbridge,” if you study at Oxford; or “ I’m a professor at Oxbridge,” when you have tenure at a Cambridge college.

However, when wanting to refer to them as a pair without distinguishing between them or needing to be specific as to which , it’s Oxbridge. Of course it is. I’m really not sure why you are so resistant to that concept.

… it’s actually you being contrary tbh.

My point is that they should not constantly be referred to as a pair! Most people I know who have gone to either of them are very aware of them as quite distinct universities who happen to share a collegiate system (as does Durham) The popular imagination sees them as a pair but they are really not.

I think one of the main reasons is there is an agreement between the two that you cannot apply to both. So when discussing it from an applications side of things it means “one or the other” when the candidate may not have decided which.

Both “Oxbridge” universities see the other as their main competitor for students. So if Cambridge makes an offer, they are fairly confident the offeree will accept, given they cannot also hold an Oxford offer. Were this not the case, it would disrupt their admissions procedures to a far higher extent. As it stands, both have the luxury that they can be extremely confident that a very high percentage of offers made will be accepted. It streamlines the process and is one reason why the applications are often referred to as “ Oxbridge “ applications.

'Being a bitch'? Being realistic.

They aren’t constantly referred to as a pair, only when relevant e.g. when talking about applications.

YANBU

she’s not going to get into Oxford with Bs. Kids with 4 A star don’t always get in!

I don’t think it benefits kids to basically lie to make them feel better about themselves. Yes be supportive she probably won’t get into Oxford but there are plenty of other great places she can go to

OP, you say she got Cs and Bs at GCSE and one A in Music? So, 4s/5s, 6s and a 7? Is this right?

Of course she won't get into Oxbridge with those GCSEs - everyone will have all 8s / 9s and still, the vast majority of them will be rejected. Why does the mum even think she would get in? Has she looked into unis at all?

I think Op needs to have a chat with mum about the entry criteria for chosen courses or send her a link. I am very surprised her college tutor hasn’t said to check the GCSE entry requirements

I still remember the full body cringe of the brief period when some people tried to make ‘Doxbridge’ a thing. There were ‘Doxbridge’ ski trips in the early 2000s. I have no idea if they still happen.

Durham has largely centralised admissions and teaching and its colleges are very unlike Oxbridge’s in terms of structure and governance. They are more like halls of residence with sports teams and pastoral care. The comparison is unhelpful.

If you’re so knowledgeable you should have replied explaining what she needs to do, in your opinion not being part of Oxford Admissions, to have a really good chance.

I would be pretty annoyed if the tutor had that conversation and didn’t tell me. Unreasonable or not is not the question.

You were out of line.

Perhaps she could go back in time and get different GCSE results?

I don't think you were unreasonable. I had an odd situation with a girl who has been tutored through primary to pass 11+ and now again through grammar to keep up to pace, telling me rather smugly "My tutor thinks I could apply to Oxbridge" - she is in Y8. I don't think she understood that a lot of children don't have to have tutors to pass 11+ or keep up in a grammar and this sounded faintly ironic. All power to them though.

Sorry not read all the posts but sounds as though it’s SIL’s ambition for her rather than her own?

Well said

I was predicted C-Es for GCSE and my teachers tried to put me down, they did that with all the ethnic minorities. So I Worked very very hard and got *A - C only 1C..all the teachers were shocked and also hated the fact I did well (racist school) and got into A-levels and went onto a to Uni. Even after all that never got a congrats from them.

Point is I hope your niece uses this as fuel to work harder and achieve better grades and prove you wrong. Thats all she can do.

Unless your niece is at a comp in a deprived part of the UK with low university uptake then she’ll never get in with those grades.
My niece had 11 A* at GCSE, 4 As at A Level, didn’t get in.
Admittedly she went to SPGS for whole students Oxbridge set a particularly high bar, but still.

You did the right thing imo. Expectation management is key. If you gave her the impression that she’d get in, think of how much more crushed she be when she didn’t.

What's the point in sending her to Oxford if she is going to struggle. You did the right thing. Too many children and parents have unrealistic expectations, which can do a lot more harm than than kind considered advice.

Maybe if you had phrased it like

“Oxford is very competitive to get into, it’s not an easy thing to accomplish… but if you decide to apply there I will try and do my best to help you get your grades where they would like to see, that however isn’t a guarantee that you will get accepted but I will help you as much as I can”

that way you’re not necessarily crushing her dream but do help her to stay realistic enough to not blame you if she applies and doesn’t get in

In this situation, even if I felt that chances were impossible I'd just go along with it. As you have now learnt, it becomes very messy when one doesn't like how you deal with their kids. You sometimes can't win. Just let her learn her own life lesson. If you want to apply then go for it. You'll need to work towards getting these grades x,y,z to be accepted.

It's over the top for SIL to do that, I agree. What can you do though? Just back off and don't over apologise.

But surely it's absolutely no skin off the OP's nose whether this student wastes her time applying to Oxford or painting her toenails or watching Love Island, or whatever else might be a waste of her time?

And surely there is someone in this girl's school who will guide the application process and will be able to give credible and tempered advice? If the OP had been smart she would have either waffled in general terms about the importance of working hard, setting her sights high, making sure she identified a university that suited her talents and ambitions, congratulated the girl on looking so far ahead, and/or referred her to the school-based experts whose guidance she should rely on.

Assuming she has all the responsibility for her niece's choice and must prevent her from wasting a few hours or days of her time is a really big overestimation of her own importance and her role in this teen's life.

The puzzling question (for her) of why her brother 'allowed' his wife to contact her and tear rashers off her makes me wonder if she sees her own family with a higher status than SIL, and holds a notion of the family equivalent of the 'white man's burden' - an unwarranted and inappropriate sense of mission that has been expressed in dishing out advice and expecting it to be gratefully accepted. And why is she so au fait with the child's grades? Someone has allowed this aunt too much of a toehold in the family.

I was once told by a teacher that I'd never be a doctor..... I now have a PhD and I'm studying medicine. It's better to say that all you can do is try.