To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

I wonder how the two students I know got past the first hurdle of having a 6 in Maths and another having 6 in English at GCSE, I am very close to one of their families, there are no mitigating circumstances.

But we (private school teachers) wouldn't encourage pupils who are getting Bs and Cs at A level to apply. We offer extra sessions after school throughout Y12 to prepare- extra reading, essay writing. It wouldn't be a good use of resources to encourage the B and C grade kids (which at my school would be 95% of pupils as we get very few Ds etc) to apply as well.

To be honest, I’m wondering too.

Could they be said to belong to an under-represented demographic?

While grades aren’t actually particularly decisive once they get to interview ( hence the best candidates grade-wise who get rejected in favour of someone with lesser grades), the grades do matter for the first cut. It’s a surprising outcome.

Would it not be possible to have a 6 in English and then go on to do a physics degree (for example), assuming great grades in physics, maths, etc?

The colleges do take other circumstances into account, but I'm not sure if any of that is relevant in this case. Getting Bs at GCSE shouldnt necessary be a hindrance, but if she wants to go she needs to turn the wick up in sixth form, really get her head down and aim for top grades in yr12 and A level mocks.

Oxbridge applications are in October, so before mocks. Obviously the niece should be working hard anyway, but there are plenty of other options that aren’t Oxbridge.

There is nothing stopping the niece from applying post A level, but there is no reason to assume that she is particularly disadvantaged. (On the contrary she has an aunt who is a tutor).

Love the way you speak as if you know the girl. Imagine what she would think reading all this. How on earth do you know she won't make it. It's up to her to decide if she can make it and that's the direction she should have been given. Sorry added this post to the wrong quote apologies to the person I quoted

My son is very bright, mostly 9s in GCSE (and a couple of 8s). Predicted A*and A in A levels but I still don’t think he’d get into Oxbridge if he applied. He’s not motivated, passionate or driven enough. Nor does he want to work as hard as Oxbridge students have to. He applied to Unis that have a good balance of work and play and has offers from all of them.

He wasn’t upset or offended when I said he wouldn’t get in, he agreed with me, but that’s because it was never his ‘dream’.

Even if you’re bright it’s not for everyone, there are lots of great unis out there that would be more enjoyable for some.

Yes, possibly, friend's son was studying Maths at Oxford, he has a 6 in English and English lit.

The other young person was studying History and had a 6 in Maths.

My DS is being encouraged by his politics teacher to think about Oxbridge but as he is currently working at A* in politics, A in Economics and B in History this was in November so had only been at college for 2 months but he has some 6s at GCSE not in core subjects but having read this I don't think there is any point.

Perhaps it was to do with the subject? My friend is on the med school and sciences admissions team so the number of applications or places are ridiculously high - and I can only go by what he has categorically told me when discussing my DC’s future plans (and the fact that I haven’t encouraged my kids down this router - despite a DH who went to Cambridge, from a state school, with all A grades, 30 years ago).

The OP’s DN (we’ve not been given grades, so am assuming she didn’t get all 7-9’s otherwise she might have said?) is only getting B’s (with some As and Cs) in her y12 assignments, it seems. Perhaps the students you know were getting A’s from day one in 6th form and therefore there was a strong case to present their grade 6s in their personal statements/school reference, due say to all the other grades being 8/9s? Who knows.

At our local state 6th forms colleges you have to sign up for the ASPIRE programme in Jan of y12 and already be getting A grades on assignments to be considered. If you do not have a 7.5 average in your top 8 GCSE grades you also cannot take part. (I’m assuming your two students did?) So the point stands - OP has not qualified her post with any information that suggests DN is gifted and talented.

My DH read natural sciences at Cambridge - also got C grade (ie today’s grade 6) in Eng lang and Lit at GCSE’s, but 9 As in other subjects, and As in A Levels - albeit 30 years ago. Under today’s criteria, that’s a 9.0 average across top 8 GCSEs and top grades in the relevant A levels for his degree. I think this explains the students you mentioned above.

I work with sixth-formers and have noticed a definite increase in the number expressing an interest in Oxbridge. This is great but there is a caveat that quite a few of them are openly motivated by the ‘aesthetic’ and the idea of floating around in a dark academia cosplay for three years. It doesn’t take long after a conversation about the course content and structure for them to come to their own conclusions about whether Oxbridge is right for them, before we even begin to consider whether they are right for Oxbridge. One boy was immediately put off once he saw a photo of the (truly hideous) English faculty building in Oxford .

PP are absolutely correct that, in the humanities at least, Oxbridge undergraduate courses tend to be very traditional and classical in their approach and this isn’t for everyone!

Two young women in our family were straight A* students, extremely academic, one was head girl, lots of extra curriculars etc - neither got into Oxbridge. It is insanely competitive. I don't think you were unreasonable at all the manage expectations if you were kind about it.

According to OP, GCSEs were A in music and others were Bs and Cs. (I assume they are in Wales where they still use letters).

It’s probably the Harry Potter effect. 😁

Yes, Harry Potter, plus Saltburn and ‘aesthetics’ as a general concept on social media. It’s fascinating.

If she’s already done her exams n doesn’t have the grades YNBU
If she’s still to sit them it’d have been more constructive to say what she could do to improve her chances.

Maybe it is different now as my DS's 6th form has no minimum GCSE profile, they will email you in the autumn of year 1 and the student if they think you are a realistic candidate and following mocks in year 1. They have a good track record of offers at his 6th form college, I think it may be 3rd highest in the country.

Thing is, lots of people are saying, just try anyway but it's a lot of energy and time to apply for Oxford and Cambridge, the submission date is earlier than the other UCAS application, you have to have great grades, and submit either sample essays or sit extra exams or both, plus my dd had two interviews and a test on the day which couldn't be prepared in advance. Then they have to get either all A stars or A star A star A as a typical offer, which is hard to guarantee even for the best student. You have to choose which college to go to, write a blistering personal statement etc. Even for the most suitable students (which this student doesn't sound, even though she's good) it's a lottery after that.

It's not a question of just popping it on a form at the top! It's a lot of extra work for teachers, students, tutors and the school would be need to be onboard as well.

One of mine is getting B's at the moment, I'm chuffed for her, but I wouldn't encourage an Oxbridge application as I don't think the type of education there would be suitable for someone who is dyslexic and a student who struggles to get A stars as it's fast paced and intensive and she works better in an environment where she can take her time to learn, and does very well once she does. I'd encourage a solid red brick/RG or a brilliant course with placement as her target.

Thank you - I was sure I’d seen it referenced somewhere, but then couldn’t find it and was also confused about the A/B/C thing given GCSEs are graded numerically these days. Doesn’t take a lot to confuse my meno brain these days, though 🤣

Am hoping the 6th form my son is going to in September is that relaxed about it, too - they also have a great track record for a state 6th form for Oxbridge entrance but I didn’t enquire about ASPIRE when we did the rounds as I felt it should be child-college led. I’m secretly hoping, as he’ll have to fight for a 7 in GCSE English, that he won’t be enamoured by either college, esp as he wants to study medicine and the competition for that is brutal given the overseas application numbers, but if he applies he is very grounded so will trust and support as necessary.

Medicine, yes, I can well imagine, I think you are right to think of it as child, college led situation but with DS every teacher, year 11 and A levels comment on how laid back he is - the 'horizontal' comments are quite a regular occurrence at Parents' evenings, he is good at ensuring his social life is grade A, so i feel the teachers are suggesting we intervene a bit sometimes but ultimately, IMO uni choices are something young adults need to be on top of.

She might prove you wrong. I was told by a teacher I had no chance - and in fairness it didn't look like I did, because I was lazy (so lazy in fact I was getting Ds and Es). It was the best thing that judgey teacher ever did for me, because I pulled my finger out and proved her wrong, got top marks and went to Oxbridge.

That’s a good example. If niece really does want to go she’ll have the drive to prove her wrong. If she just gives up because of OP then I don’t think she really wanted it anyway.

I'd never tell a relative of mine that they couldn't achieve something.

She wasn't judgey, she was entirely correct. It was you that didn't make the effort earlier for whatever reason.

@ItsallIeverwanted Yes, it's a lot of work, but it's up to the OP's niece to discover that herself. No need for the OP to be the 'bearer of bad news'. If schools and teachers don't want to put the effort in she'd be stopped anyway unless SIL did all the work and research herself.

I am a great believer in providing information and leaving someone to form their own conclusions, rather than just telling them my opinion.