To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

Well, this isn’t giving me much of an impression of the intellect of Brookes’ students.

You’re parroting something ( soft fruit with the stones left in as a test of social resourcefulness, in some versions also served in a rimless bowl) that is supposedly associated with the All Souls Fellowship interviews, not undergraduate ones. You know, All Souls, the college that famously has no students, and selects potential Fellows for the seven year prize Fellowships by things like setting a translation paper in a dozen languages in which you work through as many as you can and, formerly, an essay paper where the topic is a single word like ‘comedy’ or ‘water’) in the first part of the 20thc and is probably apocryphal anyway. I think the legend is mostly based on AL Rowse (who was the son of a China clay worker from Cornwall, so far from socially elevated himself, and got a Fellowship).

It’s depressing people are parroting this ‘socially exclusive’ stuff about a university in 2024.

If you had at Brookes people who hadn’t got into Oxford, it definitely wasn’t because they didn’t know what to do with their cherry stones.

Some past All Souls general exam papers from recent years, for anyone interested —

https://www.asc.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-10/General%202021.pdf

Why would you crash the dream though? I would have told "oxford is very difficult, we will aim there but it's good to have a solid back-up plan too". Abd save all lecturing on do ing well and doing masters for when she doesn't get in.

I think SIL is very much part of the picture.

But whether the drive is coming from DN or not, I do feel sorry for her with a war waging about her regarding her competency or otherwise.

That’s such bollocks and a really damaging myth and will put less advantaged kids off applying.
Oxford and Cambridge go out of their way now to attract state school students. I can’t fault their outreach. Unlike Durham, Bristol and Exeter which are public school ghettos.

Anyway OP I think you did the right thing. You need mainly 9/8a at GCSE, predicted A/A* at a level (mainly the latter).

People who didn’t get in always had a tall tale as to why. I’m not suggesting that the admissions process is above reproach but this is a total myth.

@mathanxiety, I am Irish, I was from a very poor background, and I went to Oxford without any help from school (rough, deprived intake, demoralised teachers) or parents (who were against me going to any university whatsoever because ‘it’s only for rich people’). I’m well aware Oxford undergraduates are not superhuman because I was one of them. I had barely left my own county and never my country before I went to interview.

I still hold to my point that if the OP’s niece is demoralised by someone throwing cold water on her chances at this point, and her impulse is to complain to her parents about her aunt not encouraging her, she’s not likely to be suited to the actual application process or teaching style. Which is fine. It’s not for everyone.

Wtf? Judgement much against only children?! Not all parents of onlies think that they’re perfect ffs

Sometimes intellectual challenge questions can be asked that might ( perhaps) involve something like cherry stones, but the point would not be one of manners or etiquette. If these people really thought that, perhaps they had not even understood what the question was getting at, let alone known how to answer. 😒In my day the story doing the rounds was that someone set fire to the don’s sofa during the interview - and, of course, (!) this generated such an impression he got in.

I agree. I think giving false hope is far worse than giving realistic expectations. Oxbridge is hard to get into, it makes sense to understand that and not think scraping a couple of As will cut it.

But that wouldn’t be a truthful explanation of how the application process works, and wastes one of her 5 applications.

The OP hasn’t crashed the dream. Nothing is stopping the niece from working to get As and applying post A level, or, as the OP says, excelling at a different university and applying to do a masters.

Whereabouts is your niece based as GCSEs have numbers not letter grades now in England. I don't think you are being unreasonable btw just that perhaps it's better to suggest alternatives rather than crush dreams eg this is a great university and they have this and that extra curricular activity you enjoy.

The bigger issue if she's predicted b or below at a level is that nearly all of the better universities require A's these days though in reality many will let them drop grades in august

That is spot on. The teaching system is such ( heavily based on small tutorial groups, and often within college) that they want to know the fit in terms of academic style will be right.

A similar approach applies in terms of interview style. It isn’t about being the life of the party, or particularly personable, or having posh mannerisms or knowing how to “ sell themselves.”; it’s about how they grapple with intellectual questions.

It won't stop her going to another university.

It literally will because you can only apply to 5 universities.

Everything has changed since the 80s.

If she wanted to get into Oxbridge surely she should already be aware how difficult it is and what’s expected of her to get in? She shouldn’t need anyone telling her at all to be honest. If she can’t think for herself and work that out already then maybe she’s not a good fit for it anyway?

I think the version of this circulating in my day was a supercilious interviewer who was reading a newspaper and ignoring the interview candidate. Eventually he said ‘Interest me’ and the candidate set his newspaper on fire.

You sound fantastic and I wish to God my ds had an aunt like you.

These days, a successful oxbridge candidate will have 10+ GCSEs at 8/9 and 4 a levels (or at the very least 3 a levels and a very impressive epq) with at least 2 A* predictions.
This is not because those are the requirements, but because a student who will be successful at Oxbridge will be the type of student who has the ability to achieve these kind of results.
ETA so I think you were right op. Better to be realistic and focus efforts on other, also brilliant, unis.

I think these threads start to bring out maybe the slight disappointment of those who achieved near perfect grades at GCSE and A level and didn't get into Oxbridge and therefore assume that candidates with slightly lower grades will not get in.

I think you should go with the official Oxford and Cambridge entrance criteria and if you are near to those go for it.

There are those with near perfect GCSE s and A levels that possibly went to very selective schools and Oxbridge to look at the context of the grades to some extent. You will always have your tales of the exceptionally well educated not getting in but that is another debate.

YANBU

A) Sounds like a SIL idea. Parents can project… I was a B/C student and my mum insisted I sit the Oxford entrance. It was her ambition, not mine. I failed. I was never going to get in, it was a memorably mortifying and confidence-knocking experience all round. There are plenty of great unis for non-straight-A kids.

B) My teens and all their mates are OBSESSED with Saltburn, and a couple of my friends with teens have said they’ve mentioned that they fancy Oxford uni after watching it…

Right....because they want to be invited somewhere like that to spend their summers with such nice families

No one says ‘I’m a History fellow at Oxbridge’ or ‘I went to Oxbridge’, obviously. Oxbridge tends to be used when talking about applications or a generalisation about the difference between those two universities and the others (see also: ‘Russell Group’) or if trying to be deliberately vague to hide details. In those cases it’s a useful shorthand and much quicker than saying or writing ‘Oxford or Cambridge’.

I’m an Oxford alumnus and I would use Oxbridge when talking about applying for uni with my sixth form students, but I will also refer to ‘Oxford and Cambridge’ sometimes and will also discuss the differences between them where relevant.

I think we've established that Oxbridge is pretty commonly used as conventional shorthand for educational style. It's also used by employers snd schools.

Yes - not sure why it's your sole fault/responsibility in crushing/supporting her 'dreams'?
You're very kind and patient to help her so much, but sounds like your SIL thinks you've overstepped a bit despite this being your area of expertise, a classic case of the mix of work and family getting too emotional.
Seeing as your SIL has bitten the hand that feeds her, all you can really do is help your dn as you are but direct all talk of university applications on to your SIL/your dn's school.
It's really the responsibility of the student firstly, maybe coupled with their school and parents. It's up to her to figure it out now.

Does she actually want the ridiculous amount of work and intellectual demand of GOING to Oxford, or just the prestige of GETTING IN to Oxford? And what about her mum?
So, so many parents think that (a) tutoring is a ticket to academic achievement when the child’s initial ability and motivation to learn is mediocre, and (b) getting into a top institution guarantees career success.
I suppose really it’s an extension of the aspirational middle class attitude that money can buy everything.