To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

I thought GCSEs were number grades now?

Anyway, YANBU. Not only because you were asked within the context of you being a tutor and it sounded like you answered kindly, but also because you only get to apply to 5 unis. If she's not realistic she could waste her applications.

Parents think you don’t believe in their children if you don’t think they are capable of getting into a top school or uni. It is better to tell them the entrance criteria and percentage of applicants who get in, and then let the information sink in.

I would never tutor children of friends or family.

@springbrigid and @AmaryllisChorus I agree strongly with you both. If you are teachers I am relieved that there are teachers like you.

I find it awful to write kids off so early on in their lives. It is a total myth that some people are innately brilliant and others not. Most of us are capable - with training - of achieving more than we imagine. Brilliance is rare but when it exists is often also the product of training. In my experience you really don’t know who is going to end up thriving. A tutor is like a coach helping the student to achieve peak performance - which is a process. I would not allow my child to work with someone who erodes their confidence under the guise of “honesty”.

People on here think that is a soft approach. It really isn’t. If we want to raise a generation of strong women we have to boost their confidence by teaching them how you overcome obstacles to achieve goals.

Op doesn’t say why she thinks dn won’t get in. She is already getting A’s and B’s. So what does she have to do to push her over the line?

I think you should go with the official Oxford and Cambridge entrance criteria and if you are near to those go for it.

That is the point. From what the OP says, she is not near the criteria.

There seems to be some general misunderstanding on this thread about how the application process works.

You can apply to 5 universities (no Poly back up these days) and even if you get 5 offers you then have to choose a firm and an insurance offer, and reject the other 3.

Many universities will only allow applications for accommodation if you pick them as a firm offer.

Sometimes straight A students end up with no offers because they only apply for competitive courses. They then reapply the following year and find a place so not the end of the world - but the point is that sometimes it takes time and it’s more complicated than just firing off applications and crossing your fingers.

YANBU.

I hate this kind of thing. Your SIL is limiting her potential.

A friend at school went to Oxford - fiercely bright, A*’s across the board. Even then it wasn’t a given.

when this time arrives for my daughters, I’ll be honest with them too. DH’s younger cousin used to speak endlessly about how she was “going to go to Oxford” and it was painfully obvious she wasn’t quite at the required level. She didn’t end up going to university at all because she got DDE at a alevel and only applied to Oxford and of course didn’t even get an interview. What’s the point of lying to a kid?!

Then having (presumably) concluded together the very slim possibility of getting in, talk about postgrad and make sure she has a plan B, C, D for undergrad that she would also be happy with.

That isn’t how the U.K. system works.

People on here think that is a soft approach. It really isn’t. If we want to raise a generation of strong women we have to boost their confidence by teaching them how you overcome obstacles to achieve goals.

And a start would be reading and understanding the admissions process.

What subject does she want to read?

True! That is the way to get a young person to face reality. Not telling them bluntly they won’t make it. Let them see for themselves and then take them on a virtual tour of other brilliant unis. There are so many ways of approaching this issue.

You might have been being realistic but it’s a really really shitty thing to do to your own niece.

It would be unreasonable to look at her grades and encourage her to apply - she wouldn’t get in. There are students getting the grades who don’t get in because it’s so competitive.

you can encourage her to study and can offer help if she wants to bring her grades up to a consistency but I think mum is annoyed that you’ve damaged her dreams of having a child at Oxford, not the child’s.

YANBU. I'm a teacher at independent schools, have taught a fair few kids who've ended up at Oxford (very few for Cambridge though, don't know why) and LOTS of kids who've applied to Oxbridge and not got in.

She wouldn't have even got an interview with those grades. They need to be getting As pretty much straightaway in Sixth Form, plus have all 8s and 9s at GCSE as an absolute baseline. Plus all the rest - need to write beautifully for my subject, as they need to submit essays and do an entrance exam too before interview.

The kids I've taught who got in essentially started Sixth Form already reading around and beyond the A level material, already pursuing their own interests in the subject.

I would have been similarly honest with her.

@GasPanic - they’re really not interested in co curricular stuff at all. We’ve had that repeatedly from admissions tutors. They are just interested in very bright students with potential to thrive in an intense academic environment with tutorials and v short academic terms.

The problem is some kids spend ages focusing on Oxbridge to the exclusion of all other unis. They then find out in November they haven't got an interview, or in December if they did but weren't accepted, then have a very short window to think about what other universities they want. I've seen pupils have to take a whole year out and apply post A levels because they got so fixated on it.

Why? Niece asked if she should apply. Don’t ask if you don’t want an answer.

If Oxford was her ‘dream’ she’d know full well if she should apply or not anyway. I don’t think it was her dream, it was either her mum’s or she just thought should I apply anyway even though I know it’s very very competitive.

We’re not America where you can apply to as many universities as you want so you’re not wasting any.

@Thefrogwife - yup. I’m a teacher in a similar sounding school and I’d agree. This year a couple of our really high fliers didn’t get in. It’s tough and the OP’s niece sounds as though she stands no chance.

What you have described here is much more of a concern about her aptitude for Oxbridge than her grades. She needs a deep passion for her chosen subject and to have independently immersed herself in as much as she can. Does she want to read English? If so, does she read widely and voraciously, across the canon and periods?

Incidentally, I can’t comment knowledgeably on the structure of the Cambridge course but English at Oxford is NOT the one for someone who wants significant academic freedom to pursue specific topics in their degree. The vast majority of students do Course I, which gives an exceptional classical education in English literature from 650 AD to the present day but which does not permit students to skip whole
periods or avoid certain major authors. The significant choices don’t come until the third year with the special options paper and dissertation.

@willWillSmithsmith because there are much kinder ways to let someone down, especially your own niece. You don’t go about arbitrarily crushing someone’s dreams, you help them come to the realisation that the thing they’re dreaming of might be out of their ability and to find a new dream. It’s no wonder so many people go about cutting ties with family if this is the kind of shit that’s pulled. It wasn’t the OP’s place and she had no right.

you help them come to the realisation that the thing they’re dreaming of might be out of their ability and to find a new dream

Why do you think the OP didn’t do that?

She said that her niece is very bright and is likely to thrive at university.

I think OP was fine in what she said. Is it their dream though? If it’s your dream surely you research and watch YouTube videos from like minded people, watch what got people in and what got them rejected. Know you have to be at the top of your game. If it’s your dream you wouldn’t let some advice (which wasn’t just dumped on her callously) stop you.

By asking ‘should’ she apply it really doesn’t sound like it’s ever been much of a commitment and dream tbh.

English at Cambridge is similar except it begins at 1300 and there are additional papers on Shakespeare, literary theory and practical criticism. You also have to take a paper in a foreign language or linguistics.

You specialise a bit the third year but there are still compulsory elements. The dreaded Tragedy paper.

There’s reasonable scope to pursue your interests within this framework but it’s a pretty traditional course.

Tbh, having a family member there at the moment and previous graduates in the family you are doing her a favour. And the post grad study is really where the strength of the university is, so I would say your advice was pretty good.

I get your intention but the response to a question like this is so important.

If I was asked my opinion like that my response would be to ask her some questions around her actual specific goals, subjects, courses and how important it was to her to go to Oxford etc. I'd then be getting into a discussion about requirements for Oxford and the importance of a strong application - and then talk about her plans, strategy etc and that if she really wants to go to Oxford she needs to look at her strategy to get there. I'd talk with her (not TO her!) about raising her grades, additional study options etc before applying, what else would likely look good on an application etc... not TELLING her - encourage a dialogue about it so she is really thinking about it herself.

If she really wants to go then she will be prepared to do whatever it takes - the only thing would be to manage expectations and make sure she knows that even with amazing grades and an amazing application, nothing is guaranteed and she should have strong back-up plans as well.

Ultimately then it's up to her. People respond to these things differently. If someone tells me I'll never be able to do something - then watch out because nothing makes me more determined. There are teachers from my school years I'd LOVE to run into now simply to watch their faces as I tell them what I do for a living.... one of whom I'd tell in fluent French!

Of course, it is doing no one any favours to say "YES - absolutely you'll get into Oxford!" when you know in the present position, it's just not going to happen. However, rather than dismissing something, I think talking about it as a goal and then engaging in discussions around real plans and strategies is a way of directing the person to take a realistic view at what they need to do to get to where they want and consider if they are prepared to do it, but it is supportive at the same time. They may then go for it - or decide to focus on another goal - either way - it'll be driven from a better place.

LovelyTheresa
But I think there’s a difference between mollycoddling and giving people hope for something they are set to try for in the immediate future so they can continue on the path they’re working towards. This was a clear ‘you shouldn’t try really’ as opposed to ‘go for it but have your back up plan just in case’

My Cambridge offer was AAB which was what I got and seemed fairly standard, at least for arts students. But I’m going back to the 90s here.

I’d agree with those posters who say Oxbridge tutors are looking more for potential and how you think and structure arguments. For English, you’ll definitely be expected to read beyond the set texts and to have a sense of the canon. In my interviews, I didn’t discuss anything I was doing for A level. A good general knowledge and an interest in current affairs will also be useful. I had a kind of general interview where I was asked about topical issues and ethical/philosophical points. I was a devoted newspaper reader at the time, and I’m sure that stood me in good stead.

But…it not the bee all and end all. It’s academically rigorous but you do need to be very self starting. There’s very little help with how to work, how to manage your time, no spoon feeding at all. It may have changed more recently, of course. But there was very little pastoral or soft skills support when I was there, virtually zero.

The college system I found rather insular and limiting socially, and coming from a big northern sixth form, didn’t feel I had much in common with many of my peers. Nor is it a magic walkway to an amazing career, although unlikely to ever be a negative. I’m moderately successful. I know lots of Oxbridge grads, some have very average or under achieving lives. Some of the cleverest people I know went to former polys. Some of the most successful are academically unremarkable.