To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

OMG you are so incredibly obtuse it’s become tedious. No one on this thread has said "all men" except for you. Everyone else points out NAMALT. You are having an argument with yourself. Please do stop.

Take it up with the islamists then.

This whole Taliban bit was kicked off by a post which began:

“How many times do people have to explain that this is not about the men in your immediate family, but men as a class?”

What is even “men as a class” apart from an abstract generalisation in which any agency of individual men is subsumed into a kind of collective responsibility or even collective guilt ? Making this about “men as a class” is generalising it into “all men”, and I have seen that repeatedly in this debate.

What responsibility can any individual man take within the abstract grouping “men as a class” for the actions of the Taliban ? What agency can they have ?

Can Decent Dave from Dagenham do anything at all about the Taliban, whose denial of womens access to education in the post I mentioned above was ascribed to “men as a class” ?

Are you suggesting, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that the subjugation of women in various other countries is unrelated to a wider, humanity-wide attitude to women?

So, to be clear, the existence of misogynistic rules in current theocracies and in Orthodox Judaism and in fundamentalist (and not that fundamentalist) Christianity and in practically any civilisation you can name if you go back far enough - these, to you, are all just isolated, unfortunate blips? Not part of a wide and endemic contempt for women?

And the fact that until just over a century ago women couldn’t actually vote in this country (since you’re determined to focus just on UK), which categorically meant that women were worth less than men? You think that’s all over and done with now? You think those feelings of superiority, baked into generations of men since the dawn of time - those values just disappeared?

Fucking hell.

Maybe, though I don't see it it terms of 'hate' exactly, more a toxic determination to keep to the 'natural order' of things. I'm not an expert in religious studies, so I'm not sure to what extent these men are using the religion as an excuse to oppress women, and to what extent they genuinely believe that women must be kept in their place.

Can Decent Dave from Dagenham do anything at all about the Taliban, whose denial of womens access to education in the post I mentioned above was ascribed to “men as a class” ?

Actually, if every Dave from Dagenham called out every instance of male violence/casual misogyny every single time, it would be a start. Social change takes time. It is gradual.

But then you know that.

Will Dagenham Dave be motivated to do anything at all if he’s told he’s basically the literal and actual Taliban because he falls within the same class as them at the highest node in the human taxonomy ?

Hopefully Dave is brighter than that 🤷‍♀️

Are you asking him to ignore the many women who say it’s men as a class who bear responsibility ? Or are those women wrong ?

Here's an example of what women in tech have to put up in the richest country in the world,, Silicon Valley Daves didn't speak up, because after all it's just a harmless joke. Not Islamists. Sorry I do not know how to post a screenshot, but for those who don;t have X, it's Sergey Brin calmly giving a talk to a group of men in tech, one of whom is wearing a gag shirt with a nude woman on it. https://twitter.com/jenstirrup/status/1764386356522864832

Those women are right.

It’s men as a class who are a problem. How many times?!

I’m white but I don’t throw a wobbly when people point out that the history of racism is largely white people (as a class) being dreadful to non-white people. And those problems persist.

Only stupid men would throw a wobbly if people point out that the history of sexism is men being shitty to women. And those problems persist.

Yep that’s clearly offensive and unacceptable. He shouldn’t have been allowed in the room by Brin or anyone else.

Good that most of the comments on that post from both female and male contributors address the offensive shirt.

@LovelyTheresa
“Maybe, though I don't see it it terms of 'hate' exactly, more a toxic determination to keep to the 'natural order' of things”

I’ve read this a few times and can’t make sense of it. Do you mind clarifying what you mean please?

So men are collectively responsible for hating women & denying them education ?

Should men be collectively punished ?

Are white people collectively responsible for racism against black people ?

Should white people be collectively punished ?

Who said anything about being punished?

Is pointing out that men (as a class 🙄) have a responsibility to call out and correct toxic behaviour that has been normalised for centuries punishing men? I think you’re actually doing men a disservice here. They are not that fragile. I think they can take that on the chin.

Totally agree.
And IMO the same applies with regards to your question about white people our responsibility to call out racism. Honestly thought that was a given in 2024.

(Comment about racism directed at @brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr not you @GreenAppleCrumble )

Someone upthread said rather dramatically that they demanded reparations !

I got that! 👍

Maybe a clarification needed: I agree that everyone is responsible for calling out sexism and racism, homophobia, transphobia - of course - this is true for all prejudices.

But what I meant with collective responsibility wasn’t responsibility for calling it out when they see it - that’s a given for me, I meant responsibility for perpetrating it.

Are all men as a class collectively responsible for all current and historical acts of misogyny, regardless of individual traits and behaviours?

Are all men as a class collectively responsible for all current and historical acts of misogyny, regardless of individual traits and behaviours?

This is what you’re not getting. Your question doesn’t make sense because you’ve started with ‘men as a class’ (so, yes, the class called ‘men’ is responsible) but changed it to ‘regardless of individual behaviours’. That doesn’t work. Men as a class is just that - a group. So if men as a group take the blame, there will be many individual men in that group who have not participated in the behaviour and have done everything in their power to change the behaviour of their group precisely because they know that the behaviour of their group is problematic.

I don’t think I can explain it any better.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr honestly your last post gives me a headache and I’m not sure it makes sense.
what is the value in the question you are asking or are you now just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Really? Because it makes perfect sense to me. You started this thread in AIBU, if you wanted an echo chamber you should have put it in Feminism.

If the category or ‘class’ of men aren’t responsible for their own behaviour in terms of their treatment of women then who the hell is?!

I was wondering when the thread police would arrive 😜