To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

Is that a reason for the PP's bandmates to not allow her to help setting up equipment?

@LovelyTheresa

You expect me to believe that you are a conventionally attractive woman and have never experienced any of the following:

• Being harassed by a male stranger and insulted when you didn’t want to a) give them your number, b) accept a drink c) have some kind of sexual encounter.

• A male ‘friend’ decide that he thinks it’s appropriate to try it on when you’ve given no suggestion that this is something you want.

• Men (who are in positions of power over you) make sleazy remarks about your physical appearance.

• Men infer or straight up tell you that you: think you’re too nice/ are stuck up/ should be with them rather then you’re current partner/ shouldn’t wear make up/ are a great match for them even though they don’t know your personality, they just think this because they find you sexually attractive/ are so great because you’ve not slept with many guys unlike others / are great because your experienced in bed unlike others…

Sounds ridiculously big headed to even describe myself as one, but as an attractive woman myself, I would be flabbergasted if you have gone through life without any of these experiences.

Where did i say that?

I think it turns to hate when we don't give them what they want from us.

Well physically we are. But I wasn't permitted to carry anything.

But lighting rigs and stuff that aren't 'too' heavy or pedal boards or guitars or stands anything like that.

I'm more than capable of setting up a PA.

But I was required to sit with the womenfolk and let the men get on with it.

But I was required to sit with the womenfolk and let the men get on with it

which must have been incredibly annoying for you…more than capable but it turns into a ‘boy’ thing

I mean, I've had men get a little persistent, and I have had some weird encounters like being followed around a shop and had random men propose marriage, but I found it weird rather than scary or offensive. A month or so ago, a very drunk man tried to get my number and he implied that I was a bit stuck up when I refused, but he wasn't dramatically awful about it. I have had many men hit on me for sure, but it has all been fairly pleasant and civilised. The one exception to this, now you mention it, was in Greece. Men there were awful, I'll give you that. Even Italy, which is notorious for men catcalling, men were more gallant than annoying: so I was bought endless drinks, got hand kisses, etc. A little strange, but nothing awful.

Oh, I agree with you that that is infuriating. However, when I said upthread that I found similar behaviour annoying, I was jumped on by a poster who said it was more sexist for men to assume women could manage to lift things.

Really bloody annoying. I was just sidelined constantly.

I mean, I liked their wives - lovely women but I was part of the band!

It wasn't just that though. It was the constant disregard. The presumption that if someome had made a mistake it must be me.

Messages on the group chat re something band related that would just go ignored (apart from the drummer).

You know the sort of thing you read about in meetings.

A problem is identified.

Woman suggests A as an action. It's ignored.

Men. If only we could find a solution to the problem.

Woman. I've suggested A. It would be a viable solution for X, Y and Z reasons.

Men. No... that wouldn't work/isn't necessary/...

Bit more discussion between the men. Woman is biding her time.

A man. We could try A..?

Other men. A! Brilliant. Let's do that!

Happened over and over again.

Well this behaviour that you don’t mind I really do not like. I never have since it began around age 13 when I was too young to understand it.

Just because you don’t mind it doesn’t mean that it’s not horrible for some and something that is put upon them because of their sex. Men don’t experience this kind of bother.

My niece is autistic, 16 and beautiful. She finds this uninvited attention really hard to understand and cope with. I don’t want my daughter to have to learn strategies to cope with over imposing men. Who there are many many many of.

I’m not saying that there are millions of scary rapists out there, though there are some, I’m saying that there are millions of men out there like this. who feel entitled to invade my space without me inviting them.

But that's what hating women looks like in reality.

As someone said earlier in the thread, hate is such an active term.

It is more passive than that. Disregard, lack of respect, overlooking, ignoring. Because what would a woman have to say that is worthy of merit?

Woman, its not your place to make suggestions to us.

Woman, know your place.

Anyway, I got sick of it and left.

The thing is, I've encountered that too.

The way I see it, if I say, "I can do it," its because i know I can do it. If a man refuses to let me that is no different to when I've asked a man (thinking of one ex in particular) for help with something that was too heavy and the request was refused on the basis that, "I thought you were a feminist?"

Men don't seem to get that I understand my capabilities and know my limitations.

I should i,agine @LovelyTheresa has been allowed to feel equal in some arena by men, maybe education ?

An arena where her forbarers had to fight through death to attain some level of equality, as per owning property and voting etc. Every step of the way men have contolled how much women are allowed to enjoy the exact same rights of themselves.

Is it a battle won, no way near, from the halls of power, to the streets and the homes we live in, men dominate. There are countries which exist whereby we are disgusted in their treatment of women, oh well states @LovelyTheresa it doesn't occur in my life.

You still sound young by your description of men finding you attractive, come back when you are 80 and have seen the entitlement of men play out, through your own life and through world events, they are a sex that need educating, but they will fight this all the way because they enjoy power.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/02/abused-raped-ignored-how-invisible-female-british-military-veterans-are-fighting-back

I'm not in a band but I do do merch for a couple of people. I always notice that my mate Tony can walk into any venue/backstage area and people assume he belongs there. Me? I'm always stopped and questioned. Women have no place and have no interest in music or are there because they want to shag the bass player or whoever.

Personally think about 60% do

I think it’s been said before - but you appear to have low standards for male behaviour. I don’t want this constant pestering for my daughters. It shows basic lack of respect.

The one exception to this, now you mention it, was in Greece. Men there were awful, I'll give you that.

Oh, the irony.

I think there's a little backtracking going on now the penny has dropped. I can imagine the dilemma of trying to square the circle of wanting be thought of as so attractive men are nice to you, while simultaneously not wanting to admit to experiencing the nuisance behaviour all attractive women experience. Quick, blame it on the foreigners!

I see what you and other pps mean re NAMALT being used to shut down discussion, I hadn't looked at it like that.

FWIW though, I think two separate points (whether most men are potential rapists and murderers vs most rapists and murderers being men) are being conflated in some posts on this thread and leading to a sense of 'most rapists and murderers are men ergo most men must be potential rapists and murderers' which I don't personally think is either true or fair to most men.

FWIW though, I think two separate points (whether most men are potential rapists and murderers vs most rapists and murderers being men) are being conflated in some posts on this thread and leading to a sense of 'most rapists and murderers are men ergo most men must be potential rapists and murderers' which I don't personally think is either true or fair to most men.

On an intellectual level ) you can make that distinction if you have to. However, in the real world, how do you tell the difference whether the bloke walking behind you for the past 10 minutes late at night (for example) is safe or whether the drink you've been bought by a stranger is safe and so on? Do you just wait and see and hope for the best?

Fairness to men doesn't trump women's safety.

Does being semantically 'fair' to nice men matter so much in the scheme of things though? Surely the important thing is that women can share experiences, support each other and look to protect ourselves from the bad ones? I can't imagine what harm you think nice men are suffering because some women may express themselves in a way that isn't literal? Because I haven't seen any yet. As a pp pointed out, the vast majority of them are just living their lives, oblivious and unaffected by all this so called 'misandry'. Those who are aware of women's feelings, who care enough to engage, they get it. They know its not them being talked about and they wouldn't expect to have conversations policed on their behalf. I wouldn't go into a support group for POC as a white person and say 'Guys, just to let you know, I'm not a racist! So can you watch how you speak about your experience of racism please, because its really important you're fair to me here! As you were...' and the decent men you want to be fair to should see it in the same way.

Spending too much time on mumsnet would give anyone the impression that everyone’s life / relationship was miserable and problematic when that is not the case, many people have good relationships with good men they just don’t write about it on this forum….because why would they

Sounds plausible, until you think about it statistically. Around half of all marriages end in divorce. Around 65% of all second marriages end in divorce. Of all the marriages that do not end in divorce, many are nevertheless demonstrably unhappy.

That means only a small percentage of marriages that endure are happy.

Because people get bored with each other/get on each others nerves/grow apart.

Divorce historically was forbidden because being stuck with the same person all your life doesn't come naturally to most people.