To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

Not when they don't see that they are privileged... That's the patriarchy. White men are the most privileged.

No, it doesn't, and I totally agree re women's safety.

But personally I don't want to take such a cynical view of my DH and male friends as to be thinking 'you're probably only a thought or two away from going out and raping/murdering a woman because AMALT.' (Not accusing you of saying this btw, but parts of this thread do feel like some posters believe this.)

I don't think not wanting to view the men in my life that way cancels out the very real concern of those men who do hate women, or what they do, or why, or what we do about it. I don't see it as an either/or scenario.

@PaperDoIIs

Let's look at what we're really talking about:

men who murder women and girls (for whatever reason)

men who rape women and girls

men who abuse women and girls

men who sexually harass and abuse women and girls (from cat calling, to touching, to upskirting etc)

men who stalk women and girls

men who threaten violence, rape etc. when women and girls don't give them the desired response.

men who make revenge porn (sometimes using AI or photoshop)

men who pressure women and girls into sex , either by nagging, sulking, everyone does it etc.

men who watch porn , especially violent porn and promote it

men who actively work to erode women's safe spaces and boundaries

men who promote unsafe sex practices /kink as mainstream and not a big deal

men who make or condone misogynistic jokes, rjokes ,violence(sexual or otherwise) jokes, underage/barely legal jokes

men who see anything "feminine" as a negative and less than

This is not even a comprehensive list, but they are all examples of male violence and entitlement . All you NAMALT posters do you still honestly believe that men that do those things are a very small minority? Once you look at it all as a whole?

Superb list, I applaud you! 👏 The NAMALT brigade really do HAVE to be men - OR a few women who have never EVER experienced any of this, and that is vanishingly rare. I have never met or known a single woman in real life who hasn't experienced something on that list - many have experienced much of it.

So I am seriously questioning the few posters on here who are fervently defending the menz. Men doing it is understandable obviously..... But women doing it? Fucking hell WHY? and HOW? How has none of the above ever happened to them? Much of it has happened to me! From very bad scenarios to low level misogyny.

My lovely middle-aged (49) doctor lives half a mile from me, and is kind and understanding with people - men, women, and children, and is good about womens health problems, who has 2 lovely daughters in their 20s who are strong, professional women, and a wife who is a nurse.

He walked past our house the other day, whilst me and DH had our heads under the car bonnet, trying to look at where a tapping noise might be coming from. (We know equal amounts about car mechanics, not loads, but bits and bobs) The doctor said (to DH) 'hello Steve, showing Jenny the ropes are you? Teaching her some car mechanics? Good one. Have a nice day.'

Now he meant no harm whatsoever, but it riled me SO much that he assumed DH was teaching ME. Just assumed the man knows more about the car, and the iccle wumman needed to be taught coz a WOMAN wouldn't know as much - or more than a MAN about cars would she?! Well I know AS MUCH as DH, if not slightly more because my grandfather and his brother were mechanics, and I used to watch them tinkering about and doing stuff to their cars some years ago, so I picked stuff up, and DO know as much as DH.

But yeah, it starts with this low level shit, and gets worse and worse, and I do NOT believe for a second there is a single woman on here who has not experienced ANYTHING similar to this, or what is on that list of PaperDoll's

I share your pessimism. I thought we were making progress until trans activism started rolling back women's rights. The misogyny and male entitlement is so plain it feels impossible that we'll ever be rid of it.

@Sususudio · Yesterday 15:15

Yes but @PaperDoIIs that's all true - but surely you see that women are mean about men on MN, so it balances out.

😬😂

*Does being semantically 'fair' to nice men matter so much in the scheme of things though? Surely the important thing is that women can share experiences, support each other and look to protect ourselves from the bad ones? I can't imagine what harm you think nice men are suffering because some women may express themselves in a way that isn't literal? Because I haven't seen any yet. As a pp pointed out, the vast majority of them are just living their lives, oblivious and unaffected by all this so called 'misandry'. Those who are aware of women's feelings, who care enough to engage, they get it. They know its not them being talked about and they wouldn't expect to have conversations policed on their behalf. I wouldn't go into a support group for POC as a white person and say 'Guys, just to let you know, I'm not a racist! So can you watch how you speak about your experience of racism please, because its really important you're fair to me here! As you were...' and the decent men you want to be fair to should see it in the same way.

In the greater scheme of things, I agree it shouldn't matter. But I believe what women think of 'their' men on a personal level does matter too, it has a huge bearing at relationship level, and isn't necessarily indicative of the wider problem of misogyny and what we do about it.

But we're not likely to agree on much because misandry is very much a thing as far as I'm concerned. (and yes, I am a woman, just in case the above comment leads to any accusations by you or others.)

Apart from making you and men sad, what effect does this misandry have that you would compare to misogyny?

This is a tricky question, OP

It is a societal problem, not to be individually measured IMO. There are shining examples of great men, and, in all honesty, why the hell wouldn't you abuse any god given privilege you don't even need to work on that much? I don't mean abuse violently, I meant to benefit yourself in society/financially etc.

(The male violence issue is a separate argument I feel.)

What matters is that, as women, alive today, we use every right given to us as best we can: not needing to stay married, not keep an unwanted pregnancy, work in the same roles as men, raise our boys well, model stron lg women to our daughters, call out misogyny, protest loudly when we don't feel safe, defend our biological sex and demand the men in our own lives see us as their equals or they can p*ss off. We are undoing generations of taught and given privilege in males and we are doing it quickly compared to past generations - This is about western society specifically, other cultures are so far behind it's heartbreaking.

Spouting about men hating women really does fuel the fire on both sides. But, I appreciate a moan about it is necessary at times. But I will not say that most men hate women.

Tbh I don't care much about misandry. It's so ineffective and powerless that it is confined to discussions on the Internet.

Except that it doesn't stop at a personal level does it. A lot of posters have insisted that because "their" men are lovely, there is no problem and we're all a bunch of bitter, myopic,misandrist women with a victim mentality that got what we "expected" to get.

And they only engage to shut down conversations, shame other women for speaking up and change the focus to their lovely men(and if they're really lovely, the conversations are never about them).

It's never that personal. No one is asking you to think of your husband as a walking, talking murderer/rapist.

In what ways are men harmed by this so called 'misandry'?

Are they at physical risk from women because of it?
Do they get lower wages than women because of it?
Are they treated less favourably in the workplace than women because of it?

I mean, if it's an actual thing then there must be actual ways mens lives are damaged or unreasonably restricted by women in measurable, statistically provable ways.

But we're not likely to agree on much because misandry is very much a thing as far as I'm concerned.

What do you class as misandry?

Women expressing their fears of men who are unknown to them in case they are attacked/sexually assaulted? This is because some men do attack and sexually assault women. I don't 'fear' men and it doesn't stop me doing what/going where I want. But I am always aware of men, their movements, their position in relation to me. I have been raped and sexually assaulted. I'd be foolish not to be aware. Do men suffer because of this? No.

Women complaining that their partners don't take on equal/equitable levels of childcare/housework? Do men suffer for this? No.

Women acknowledging that the men in their lives (in whatever capacity) don't listen to them or take them seriously, dismiss them? Do men suffer in any way due to this? No.

If men want the narrative to be different, they need to do different.

Everyone is entitled to hold whatever opinions they want about whoever they want. As long as they don't harm/disadvantage anyone in the process.

Men are not being harmed or disadvantaged by women's acknowledgement that many of them don't always treat women as equals. Their lives are unaffected by this.

Women's lives are negatively impacted by many of the beliefs/words and behaviors of many men.

That is the difference.

Some men can't get sex? Maybe that's it? Or a girlfriend/wife who will take their nonsense without complaint (nagging)?

Because that's the only disadvantage I can think of. And the only one they seem to actually moan about - being pulled up on their lazy, disrespectful, crappy ways!

Out of 86 young men surveyed, 11 said they would rape a woman if there no consequences. When the wording changed from rape to force a woman to have sex , worryingly , the number increased to 27.

I am unsurprised tbh.

The research comprised two online surveys, one of 295 students from 100 UK universities and another of 259 students at a university in south-east England.
Participants were asked detailed questions about a range of sexual scenarios, including having sex with someone intoxicated by drugs or alcohol, and their attitudes towards women and romantic relationships.
In the first survey, 30 participants reported they had committed 145 sexually aggressive acts over the past two years, with sexual coercion being the most common, followed by rape and attempted rape and unwanted sexual contact.
In the second survey, 33 men reported perpetrating 106 sexually aggressive acts over the same timeframe, with a third of those declaring they had committed three or more.

Of the 63 perpetrators who took part in either the first or second study, 37 reported perpetrating unwanted sexual contact, 32 sexual coercion and 30 rape or attempted rape.

So that's 31%, rounded down.
And these are only the men who were actually being honest about their appalling attitude to women.

PaperDoIIs

This is part of the problem.

Men hear rape and imagine it means 'would you hide behind a bush, follow a woman down the road after dark and drag her down an alleyway, brutally rape her and leave her for dead?'

And, no, most men wouldn't do that.

But far too many of them don't understand what consent actually means.

They override boundaries and don't consider what should be normal acts of decency. They ignore if a woman is sending clear non verbal cues that they are not interested. They sulk, apply pressure, moan, complain, threaten to look elsewhere and the majority of them wouldn't see a problem with that.

It happens less now I'm late 40s and I'm far better able to deal with it when it does but I can remember being late teens and early 20s and men stroking my breasts or grabbing my arse as I walked past them. Especially if I had a pint in each hand at the time. They thought nothing of doing that.

Given that violence and abuse of men by women is a very real phenomenon too, I'm surprised the question even needs to be asked.

And of COURSE I know the figures for that are eclipsed by the horrific levels of violence and abuse of women by men. But it exists. Therefore we do need a term to describe female hatred of men, because that too exists.

@GreyCarpet same here. Happened all the time. And if they’re in a group they egg each other on to do and congratulate each other with group laugh.

Men use women. Whether they hate women or not, they see them for their own use, as something to support their agenda and their advancement. They have in the past. They still do today.

In what ways are men harmed by this so called 'misandry'?

Are they at physical risk from women because of it?

Yes. Because presumably those women who do carry out attacks on men are carrying a lot of hate towards them.

There is already a term for it - domestic abuse.

Misogyny is far wider, fundamental and impactful than that.

It prevents women from participating fully in daily life and it denies women a voice.

Misogyny is systemic. Its not individual.

Misandry is not systemic. It is individual.

Editing becaise I know some people can be deliberately obtuse...

Of course individuals are misogynistic but, in many cases, they don't feel active hate towards women. They believe their position, beliefs, attitudes are an understandable manifestation of 'natural law'.

That is why it is so damaging.

The examples fo misandry given (eg DA perpetrated by a woman towards a man), it is specifically an individual act. There is no systemic belief system that encourages or causes it. It's purely individual.

Doesn't mean hatred of men by women isn't also a thing.

thepastinsidethepresent

There are posts on here every day detailing a family where both adults work full time and the childcare, parenting, housework, cooking, life admin falls solely to the woman. I've read three today.

This isn't because the man hates his wife. It's because he fundamentally believes that it is her job, her role, her responsibility. He hasn't even considered whether he should be playing a more active role in it. Women are better at it. Women enjoy it. If his wife doesn't, she's getting being a woman wrong.

That is misogyny.

Misogyny is a man who apologises to the bar staff because his girlfriend has ordered a pint of ale and he is embarrassed by it (been there!)

Misogyny is not listening to a woman without even considering there might be merit to what she says because it hasn't occurred to him there might be merit to it because she's just a woman making a noise. (Been there too.)

Misogyny was me being in a job interview where overnight trips were occasionally required and being aware of the exact moment I was out of the running by the expressions on the interviewers' faces when they asked me who would look after my children when I went away and I replied, "Their dad." I should have said, "My mum." Because, in their worlds, no dad was going to look after the children for a few days so I could go away for work (working away isn't a standard requirement in my profession).

That is misogyny.

DA might be driven by misogyny but it isn't exclusively that.

Some individual women might be violent/verbally abusive/controlling towards individual men. Of course that's not OK. But we can worry about misandry when we've solved the problem of misogyny as far as I'm concerned.