To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

Yes, it is pretty shocking.

It doesn't just 'serve men', though. It serves TRUTH. Does it really do women any favours to be constantly dwelling on bad men. It isn't 'pretending the nasty ones don't exist' to focus on the good ones.

The dynamic of the debate is exactly the same.

“Islamiphobic sentiment”

”Yes they’re all like that”

”Not all of them, I have Muslim friends”

”Most of them are”

”Ah but Manchester Arena !!!”

”I’m a Muslim, most of us are peaceful”

”Nobody asked you stay out of it !”

”Most terrorism is perpetrated by Muslims”

”No it isn’t”

”It obviously is, thousands of Muslims are terrorists”

”No they’re not”

”Apologist !!!!”

and round we go.

and now that one weird poster is going to claim I must be Muslim.

If those feelings being expressed were not “all men…” but were “all Jews…” or “all black people…” instead, the posters would be (rightly) “scolded” as you put it for antisemitism & racism. Generalising populations based on your feelings about them is prejudice

Firstly, everything @5128gap said about why and how NAMALT is really being used in this debate. Its a diversionary tactic from what we all really know about how far too many men are like that, and if we divert from the problem with men, we can't tackle it.

Secondly if (what you call) the feelings on this thread were expressed as ' all Jews' or ' all black people' that would be racist as those men would not be behaving like that because they were Jewish or black but because they were men.

It reveals everything about your concern for women though, that your focus is on how the way talking about men's violence affects men, rather than focusing on how men's actual violence affects women.

Well, it serves women by focussing on the 'bad' men so that they can avoid situations that may put them in danger from men.

It serves women to focus on the bad men so that we can create public policy and laws and safeguarding to protect women and address the behaviour of bad men.

So yes, only focusing on the good men absolutely does not serve women and exposes them to danger. It absolutely does.

I don't mean that lawmakers shouldn't focus on safeguarding. However, broad statements like 'men hate women' are NOT helpful as they are rooted in emotion and not facts.

I think it ranges from hatred, to contempt, to not quite seeing women as equal.

There's a few men who aren't like that.
I've been married 10 years... But we STILL have to unpack subconscious things that he does due to the privilege that he has of being a man in a patriarchal society.

If you look very closely, even "good men" have little things that they do because of the world they were raised in.

Little, subtle expectations of women.
Expectations that the world will fit around them.
Expectations that women will pick up the pieces and carry a lot of the emotional load.

Even if a man has the best of intentions, being raised in a society like this and surrounded by other men (who range in usefulness) is going to affect him.

I have never, in my life, met a man that didn't have proper work to do surrounding un/conscious misogyny.

The men that recognise it and do it? Amazing.

But most don't.

“It reveals everything about your concern for women though, that your focus is on how the way talking about men's violence affects men, rather than focusing on how men's actual violence affects women.”

I worry that creating and reinforcing narratives that “all men hate women”, and “all men are violent” or even “most men are violent” causes perceptions to diverge even further from reality - and they are very skewed. I have acknowledged in this thread that men are violent, and that violence is mainly pepetrated by men. It doesn’t mean all or most men are violent.

Its not remotely the same. The conversation above perpetuates harm to a minority group. A belief that Muslims are terrorists has led to multiple attacks on Muslim people. After a terrorist attack my Muslim colleague had her hijab ripped from her head and was spat on (by a man)I don't see any evidence that men are having shit pushed through their letter boxes, their houses burned down, are being assaulted in the street and are afraid to go out because of hoardes of angry women applying sexist stereotypes to them.
You are arguing against prejudice, which is fair enough, but if you ignore the difference between prejudice alone, and prejudice plus power, the false equivalence weakens rather than strengthens your argument.

NAMALT is always , always used to derail these discussions and frankly, shut them down. It always becomes about the nice husband and son and father, and their woman defending them. It changes the focus from male violence (which ironically, affects other men too)and the issues around it ,why it happens ,how can it be changed etc to these nice guys some random poster knows and loves.

Like I said before, it might not be all men(of course it isn't) , but it is too many men. It's Too many men that do too many things(and it's not just murder and rape) that paint a bleak (bigger) picture, not the women talking about it.

@GreyCarpet - yes that it is. Men do punish the transgressions of women as they see them, Women who conform are rewarded and those women will defend men because they are no wrong.

In that sense, it is other women who set the standards for other women. This leads to the following sort of posts - You cannot say that. Not all men. Maybe she should have expected it. It is all over this thread latently and explicitly in some cases.

Social enforcement is one thing that men delegate to certain women to other women. They don't do it themselves

It absolutely is and imo as soon as you realise you're dealing with someone like that it's best to engage no further and just carry on talking about the actual topic.

Many men believe we hate them too.

It’s not just lawmakers. It’s individual women who need to be aware that there are many ‘bad’ men out there who will hurt them, or put them at harm ( such as from under protected sex, including lying about their sexual history so they don’t have to use condoms), and that it’s possible to spot a good man from bad, partly because lots of men who will hurt you, don’t consider themselves bad men.

Women can keep themselves safer by assuming and preparing for the worst.

Mothers teach their children the same. That’s why we tell lost children to approach another woman with kids to help them. We don’t tell them to approach a man because NAMALT and we mustn’t generalize as that is prejudice, and we need to keep our focus on the good men.

“Many men believe we hate them too.”

With some people, it is easier (and reductive) to describe us as man haters, rather than justifiably angry at our treatment and the power imbalance.
Hate the behaviour, not the people.

No but it does mean most violence is caused by men and that we need to do something about that. But you appear to have no interest in doing but have an obsessive interest in protecting men’s reputation even though everyone on this thread seems to be basically saying the same thing that is most violence is caused by men and too many men are like this.

Do they expect us to be pleased about the way they dominate and exploit us?

Let's assume for a moment that all this handwringing of prejudice ,hate and misandry is true. How does that actually affect men though? What are you fighting for? Who are you defending?

How are men changing their behaviours ? How are men considering these prejudices and hate in their daily lives and changing things to navigate it and avoid it? Are men stopping to think before they go out whether they'll be safe, whether the have a plan and back up plan ? Do they change their routes or routines or behaviours? Are they worried? Are they afraid? Do they take pics of plate numbers, pretend to be on a phone call, let a mate know where they're going?

What is the real effect is having on men?

The only complaints I see are the "you can't say anything these days " or "you can't even look at a woman anymore " types. Not that they actually change anything.

It doesn't lead much introspection, dies it?

Tbh far, far too many men genuinely feel that simply not prioritising them is hating them.

I think someone up thread said that from a position of privilege, equality feels like oppression and I think that's the case when it comes to too many men. When you don't centre such men, they feel that they are being discriminated against because they simply can't comprehend not being put first all the time.

No it does not!
I think this is because, by and large, women are not a threat to men (at least not in the way that men are a threat to women)
Humans, in common with other animals are set up ('hardwired') such that they, by default, prioritise or pay most attention to things that are threats.
Men can 'afford' to ignore women because women are not likely to harm them.

You'd think men would hate other men, given that they are far more often the victims of their violence and hatred.

They actually blame their mothers for not protecting them.

The majority of men in prison had abusive fathers - they face a clear choice of adopting the toxic father model or being the subject of more male violence. It can be the difference between life or death. Many man have huge resentment at mothers who did not leave and exposed them to abusive fathers. It is absolutely grim. These men are then often extracting a very toxic revenge on their future partners and girlfriends using the same tactics not to be weak. Violence in families is not punished enough. Domestic abuse runs in families because of this kind of blind eye behaviour by mothers (who may also be victims). If we discussed it more in terms of the damage make violence actually does, put money behind it then our society would look different. But instead really there js handwringing and boys can become violent men. Horrible.

I think that both women and men tend to have a default impulse (which probably remains largely unconscious) to align themselves with whoever has the most power and status.
This would likely be the optimal strategy in a basic tribal society.