To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

Perhaps there is an element of getting what treatment you'll expect

you realise that this is an awful thing to say don’t you?

This is one of the worst things I’ve read on mumsnet for a long time…

So to summarise…if women expect to be abused or treated badly then that’s what will happen? So it’s their fault?

I’ve never been treated particularly badly by men, doesn’t mean I’m so blind to the experiences of others that I’d actively blame them for it.

Does this logic extend to the men who beat their wives in front their children, for example.

This poster is the worst sort of female narcissist

Its shocking that some people still think this way bombastix

I'm very lucky that I have a brilliant hubby who is always very thoughtful caring and loving, our marriage is rock solid, since we first met in September 2007 he's never laid a finger on me and has never had the vile attitude that women get what they deserve. He does his fair share of housework too and actually does a better job of it than me! He detests any man - real or a character in a film or whatever, that mistreats women.

My ex, from 20 odd years ago, on the other hand was a vicious brute, sexist racist and homophobic ..... except I didn't know he was like that when we first got together...

So, as you say, it's not all men, just some, there are some lovely gentlemen out there, but it does p* me off when we're told to not go out at night alone, carry keys in our hand to stab in eyes of attacker.... then WE get done for assault ...., only wear particular clothes etc. etc. Why should women have to change our lives because of attackers?

To all good men out there who are intelligent and hard working, thank you!

I worked in criminal law for a time and initially was surprised by women who supported men who had abused others.

After a while I realized that quite a few women are extremely narcissistic in terms of relationships with these men. If it didn't happen to them, the victim was a moaner ruining their lives. They took personally.

Like attracts like.

@LovelyTheresa You're insulted by me suggesting your behaviour towards men may be the cause of their pleasant treatment of you (although happy enough with the idea its because you're attractive!) then go on to say pretty much the same, but with the implication that women are not really ill treated, they are merely perceiving themselves as such?
My friend who is a larger woman didn't imagine getting heckled as a 'fat slag' outside a nightclub because she has a poor view of men. It happened because her body shape gave them an excuse to spew their hatred. I wasn't abused in the street last week after I turned down an invitation for a drink from a man because I am prejudiced against men. It was because he didnt get what he wanted. My DD wasn't catcalled at age 13 in her school uniform because I've brought her up with an unfairly poor view of men. It was because men think even young girls are there for their sexual gratification. Being attractive provides something of a shield, which is pretty awful in itself if you need to be aesthetically pleasing to be treated well, but you still need to stay in your lane.

On MN you get the worst examples of male behaviour.
I married a really nice good man 40 yrs after meeting him he's still a nice bloke .My ds is a good husband and really involved dad .That's the example and experience he had growing up .We were and are a partnership who do both think that you should raise each other up .
Woman can expect and demand better from the start of a relationship. We can bring our children up to behave and truly believe in equality, respect and kindness.
I grew up in a challenging household, I knew what was happening was so wrong .I didn't want to ever experience that fear nor let my children. I'm not being smug in anyway but I do find some of the threads so so depressing and upsetting.

Mansplaining from the first post telling us wimmin how fucked up we were to express our feelings has been all about you. The fact that you cannot see that is precisely the evidence that we’re talking about. Plus your persistent [mis]representation of the OP in order to scold us.

This infantilization of women is misogynistic in itself.

Men are physically stronger than women and are more prone to psychopathic traits and extreme violence. But you're still talking a small minority in percentage terms. It's the section of society that ends up in jail, for the most part.

Most men don't commit violent crimes (obviously a lot do numbers wise within one half of the global population). Most men don't hate women.

I don’t get the constant man bashing!! I know a few men who are dicks but an equal amount of women!

That's an interesting choice of word and actually very perceptive. It's notable that there are women who come to these threads, not with evidence or even opinion to challenge the points made, but seemingly just to tell other women how nice men are to them. There seems a real need to demonstrate superiority, they are more attractive, they live in nicer areas, they have better groups of friends, they are wiser in their choice of husbands, they are better mothers to their sons. For these people the thread is not an opportunity to debate the topic, merely a vehicle to demonstrate what a superior type of wonan they are, with the male approval they recieve confirmation of that.

@5128gap - I've met these women in real life and they are everywhere on Mumsnet too.

Women can be very narcissistic relating to their relationships with men. At its worst, it means enabling serious crime. I no longer assume women are necessarily empathetic to other women. A lot of them are much more interested in power and how they are perceived. Their casual cruelty to other women who have suffered is a clear signal of this and you should take care not to lay yourself and your hurt in front of them.

Perhaps there is an element of getting what treatement you'll expect.

Well, going for maths tuition I expected to.. you know, learn maths. I expected to do work, have concepts explained to me and get even better grades than predicted. I expected to be safe. I actually did, it didn't even cross my mind. How could it? He was a sought after, well respected,well mannered Uni professor with an amazing reputation in and out of work. How could it? There were 4 other girls at the table. His wife was in the kitchen cooking, his son in the living room watching telly. It doesn't get safer and more normal than that.

I definitely didn't expect him to put his hand under my jumper and start touching, pinching,grabbing. It still happened, despite my lack of "expectations ".

I still can't comprehend as a fully grown adult that sense of entitlement and arrogance. That sense of being so untouchable . That sense of taking what you want, when you want, from whomever you want.

All I can say is they must have enormous contempt for women in Afghanistan and Iran, several African countries and women in every country less than a century ago who are/were just to stupid and ugly to be treated really gr8 by lovely, lovely men.

Very prejudicial of you to label someone participating in an open online conversation as “mansplaining”. Another dismissive device used to shut down debate alongside all the other ones you (in particular) deploy.

If somebody participating here:

• Is male
• Is suspected of being male
• Claims they know nice men
• Claims not all men hate women

…then you dismiss anything they have to say and stifle debate. That’s a you problem.

The assertion that “[all] men just hate women” was always incorrect.

If those feelings being expressed were not “all men…” but were “all Jews…” or “all black people…” instead, the posters would be (rightly) “scolded” as you put it for antisemitism & racism. Generalising populations based on your feelings about them is prejudice.

If only I could thank this 1000 times. 👏💯😃 Excellent post!

If those feelings being expressed were not “all men…” but were “all Jews…” or “all black people…” instead, the posters would be (rightly) “scolded” as you put it for antisemitism & racism. Generalising populations based on your feelings about them is prejudice.

Here you are again parroting this. It's already been pointed out 'not all' was stated. Factually the violent and sexual crimes that are committed are committed by men. This is a correct generalisation statistically. So by equating this to 'all black people' and 'all Jews' is not the same.

If there were 4 billion men and one of them was not like that, it would still technically be true, but still colossally missing the point and widely misrepresenting reality.

In our real world, the technical truth may be NAMALT, but it more accurately reflects reality to say that the vast majority of people who ARE like that are men.

And part of the reason that continues is because so many people, men and women, when that truth is stated, respond with NAMALT instead of saying, ‘Hmm, what do we need to do to address that?’

I have never met a man who 'hates' women, no.

But I have met an awfully large number of them who have expectations of women in terms of their words; actions; conduct; presentation; preferences etc and who deem women who fall short of those to be less worthy of them, their presence, their courtesy, their consideration etc.

Eg there are an awful lot of men who think women shouldn't be loud (including laughing loudly in a public place - cackling); set boundaries (unkind); have expectations of consideration (nagging); have sexual boundaries (frigid); be sexually confident (slut); drink beer, play pool, wear jeans, not wear make up etc (unladylike or unfeminine); be assertive (bossy); challenge a man's authority (deserved it); out alone, after dark, in a public space (asking for it)...

Men are often contemptuous of women who don't behave themselves according to men's standards and expectations for women. They see those women as less deserving and having brought it on themselves - if you want to go about your life not conforming to what they think a woman should be, you also forfeit the respect and protection men can choose to offer.

Many women (me included) have no interest in being 'protected' by a man. Unfortunately, what I have learned over the years is that, not having their protection isn't necessarily a neutral state when you can look after yourself because often the man whose protection you forfeited will be the one who decides to teach you a lesson.

Of course, there are many individual men who don't behave like that.

But that is what men hating women means. It doesn't mean they avoid us. It means they punish us for our transgressions.

Ah you’ve just confirmed your sex 😉

I have confirmed nothing. You seem more invested in making this personal than actually contributing.

Speaking for myself, I would prefer people not to say NAMALT because it adds nothing. I doubt there's a single person on the thread who believes that every man is a rapist and murderer so it's not necessary to use it to educate. The reason people think its a 'handmaiden phrase' is because it serves men. Its used as a means of diverting attention from discussion of men who ALT. "No, no, you don't want to talk about those bad men, let's talk about these lovely ones instead, and if you only ever think about those nice men, we can pretend the nasty ones don't exist..." NAMALTing serves the interests of 'good men' by elevating their basic standards of decency to something we're lucky to have, and serves the interests of bad men by hiding them behind the good ones.

Spot on! I am always impressed by your posts @5128gap.