To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr are you a man?

Why, how would my answer change anything ?

the patriarchy harms (and discriminates against) everyone - but in different ways and to very different extents.

Agree fully with this. A paradox of feminism is that, when/if it succeeds in its aims, men will benefit. It's a side effect, not an objective, but still an important factor.

Unfortunately, men (the dreaded 'in general' men) tend to be so deeply embedded in their various power games that they can't see those benefits as worth having; indeed, many can only envisage a feminist world as one where women brutally oppress men 🙄

It’s also not possible for men to change “as a class”.

Hard disagree. It's called cultural change. Happens all the time. British men used to trade daughters for possessions, land or political influence; we don't do that here any more, but can see it's still normal in large parts of the world. Ditto men beating or divorcing their wives for bearing girl babies - and killing those babies, either directly or by neglect. Men used to be owned by other men, as slaves or serfs. So-called bonded labour still pertains in many other places. My point is that we can observe these changes playing out.

I’m not looking for change. I’m curious. I’m assuming that you are.

Regarding that second part - sorry I understand your point - and I definitely agree that societal values can and do change.

I was responding to somebody who said “So if only men (as a class) would stop being violent.” and the point I was trying to make (but I wasn’t clear enough) was that I don’t think that’s something men (as a class) can just switch off. I think society has become less violent overall than it has been in the past, but there’s a loooooooong way
to go. We (humans of any sex) appear to be very good at both violence against each other (humans of any sex) and very
good at holding grudges for centuries.

This is going to be a long post. I can feel it as I have a lot of thoughts.

I don't think that most men hate women.

Hate, to me, is an "active" emotion.

Instead, as PP's have pointed out, I think it's far more "passive" than that. It's something more akin to contempt.

I'm going to give an example, and this is just one lone example and I'm completely aware that it's not representative or anything like that.

Recently, I was reading about a case in the US of a woman being shot dead in front of her child by her estranged husband. Stupidly, I decided to take a dip into the comment section. Even more stupidly, I hoped that the comment section would be full of outrage at the crime that had taken place and compassion for this woman and her family/friends for their loss.

Instead, it was full of comments from men. Comments such as "Every action has a cause...what did she do to cause him to do this?" The implication in each of the comments was that she was to blame for her own murder, and the man had been somehow provoked into acting that way.

It's a sad state of affairs that I half-expected the comments to be like that. I'd seen so many that mirrored that and I wasn't even surprised. Yes, I know I'm going to be told that that is just "internet babble" and it's to be expected on the internet which seems to be the dumping ground for men's misogyny.

However, these were, presumably, real men posting and I tend to take people's comments in good faith-that they say what they mean and mean what they say. That, to me, means that these real men really think there is justification for a man taking a gun and shooting a woman if she does something "bad enough."

These are men who potentially have families, friends and coworkers. People that may largely agree that Todd is a really good, stand-up guy. Todd in his real-life may even wax lyrical about how in favour he is of women's rights. However, in the "privacy" of his online account-he displays and dumps his misogyny for the world to see.

There was a case a while back of a young man who was convicted in the sexual assault of a young woman in the US. At the time, it was set amidst other similar crimes-in college campuses. Again, many of the comments that came attached to the articles were lamenting the loss of this rapists "bright future." Again, the implication was that the victim had somehow been vindictive in pursuing prosecution against him and that she ought to have gone silently away. Many comments referenced his youth as an excuse for his atrocious behaviour and/or found some way to make it her fault for drinking or being out partying (something he was also doing).

This kind of attitude is peculiar to crimes against women. There's few crimes that attract so much victim-blaming as crimes against women-especially violent crimes. Victims of DV-"Why didn't you see the signs and pick better?" "You must have wound him up/angered him."

Victims of SA: "Why were you out, dressed like that?" etc.

No matter what happens to women at the hands of men, there will always be a man, more than likely several, ready to shout into the wind that she was to blame and the man ought to be partially-exempted from blame due to this.

And we'd all like to think that these attitudes are rare-but they're not. Not as rare as they should be. I sometimes think men just simply don't view women as whole human beings, deserving of respect. Especially if that woman steps out of "line."

If a woman is to walk down the street at night, wearing a dress, had a little drink, she'll be deemed by many men as fair game. Of course, they'd never do anything, but if someone else does-well, it was hardly surprising, was it? It's as if it's accepted that men's behaviour will always be violent (and I'm not saying all men are violent) and it's up to women to curtail our behaviour to "control" it.

I said it would be a long one and I have too many thoughts and I have more-but I'll stop now and let everyone NAMALT me to oblivion.

I’d say that various of the other prejudices you mentioned (most obviously those based on sexuality and gender identity) are themselves substantially or partially rooted in misogyny. Some men are so hateful of women that they won’t accept behaviour, that they deem insufficiently masculine, from other men.

Similarly, the Twitter screenshot you posted - while it was a direct attack on certain behaviours in men, it was also highly misogynistic.

The op is correct.
A female was telling me how when working in the financial sector she was advised to sign off her emails with an obviously male name. The reasons? When signing off using her real (obviously female name) she was getting a lot of hateful emails. Her male counterpart sending the exact same emails was not.
This has been said many times by women.
There us no other other explanation than mysoginy.

I agree, after I shared that image I considered following up with a further comment about the misogyny but I’m cognisant that I’m posting a lot about this topic.

Many apologies you didn't post about YouTube figures in a condescending tone this morning - you were right!

No worries, I was sure it wasn’t me but there’s always niggling doubts 🫣

SOME men… not all men ffs. Here we go again…..

Thanks or taking in good faith, I am really aware of words meaning something online so it was pretty amiss of me.

Of course, they'd never do anything, but if someone else does-well, it was hardly surprising, was it? It's as if it's accepted that men's behaviour will always be violent (and I'm not saying all men are violent) and it's up to women to curtail our behaviour to "control" it.

I was responding to somebody who said “So if only men (as a class) would stop being violent.” and the point I was trying to make (but I wasn’t clear enough) was that I don’t think that’s something men (as a class) can just switch off.

@clairelouwho & @brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, this is veering off into much bigger questions about the degree of aggression inherent in human nature and the, somewhat different, question of innate male violence.

I agree that either sex can be a warmongering bastard/hero (depending on POV) on any scale, really, and certainly in larger matters we might call tribal. Proof is all around us.

But why do invaders rape? The traditional 'justifications' of repopulation no longer hold, if they ever did - it's about power, exerted by the invader penis and intentionally humiliating to their victims. With some victims being male, the metaphor is all too clear: troops use their individual male bodies to invade and destroy vanquished individuals.

That isn't sex. I don't claim to know why they do it: I don't buy the hormonal effects of battle as a motivator, because female fighters don't do it and neither do all male fighters. But there is a link here between violence and the penis. I don't understand it.

Some people, as you've both said in different ways, believe men are inherently violent, even rapists, by nature. If that's the case, they are the last people who should be running our nations, armies, economies, education systems, or anything at all really: they're unable to moderate their aggression? Worse still, they must be expected to express their aggression through sexual dominance?

I think - or hope, at least - men are better than that.

@Garlicking

My point wasn't so much that men are inherently violent, rather that, as a society, we have an attitude, especially from men themselves, that if a woman behaves like X-be it with what she wears, where she walks, when she walks there, how much she drinks, etc-that there's an element of responsibility on her end if something happens to her.

Therefore, the message is that a man's default position is to be violent. I don't think this is intrinsically the case-at least I hope not and it's not been my experience-but when there's a prominent case of sexual assault in the media-be it mainstream or social-or both-there's an implication in the attitudes of men commenting-that it's the woman's behaviour that somehow set the man off. And this attitude is seen in the police, the courtroom, media and in the commentary.

There's a real danger in this kind of message-because it removes agency and responsibility from the perpetrator and places it instead on the victim. Not only that-it furthers a message that men aren't accountable for their actions-boys will be boys, after all.

I hope that made sense but I think I've turned my own brain to mush now.

The men in my life do not hate women….but I think it’s fair to say that Mum and Wife tends to use the brain to ensure the home is functioning! My husband and kids love me and it’s not really a conflict in our household 🤷‍♀️

You make a lot of sense, and that's the real irony.

For every NAMALT and "not my Nigel" there's a comment about "personal responsibility " when it comes to women's safety. Sometimes from the same posters.

Shroedinger's man.... simultaneously not dangerous, but still something a woman has to protect herself from.

You can't have it both ways.

Therefore, the message is that a man's default position is to be violent.

I don't feel you are disagreeing, actually, @clairelouwho. Because the default male is seen to be violent or a rapist, those who think so will blame his victim for inflaming him. Either she was womaning wrong, was being a woman in public or in private, or was foolish enough to be an Israeli, Palestinian, Tutsi, Hutu, Bosnian, Serb ... the list goes on.

One cultural change we desperately need to see is for this assumption of men's violent natures to be kicked to the kerb.

My brain's also mushed! Am off to watch some fake violence on Netflix.

One cultural change we desperately need to see is for this assumption of men's violent natures to be kicked to the kerb.

I didn't put that right. I meant the assumption grants permission, in a "well, what do you expect?" sort of way. As if men can't help being violent rapists, so it's best to steer clear.

Although it's unspoken and is not deliberate, there is a kind of male conspiracy around this: permission granted by implication. If it were deliberate - it would comprise an effort to control all women by abusing some, like decimation. It still has that effect, though, even without a Patriarchal Planning Committee calling the shots.

I think we should be talking about the problem of male violence.

I think most men resent women but I resent them as well

Men do hate women - perhaps not consciously but it's bred into them through the society we live in. Mens hatred of women is driven by women's ability to grow and bear and children - the one thing men can't do. Patriarchy is built around the male need to ensure a lineage which no man can ever be 100% certain of, a problem women don't experience through pregnancy and childbirth. This primitive resentment has endured to shape a culture of shame, fear and control of female sexuality

Men are users.

I've found them to be across the board.

Some are more cunning making it appear that they are not.

You have been unlucky, but please don't try to make your personal experience universal. It isn't.

Would you accept this sort of evo psych babble as a reason for women not to be allowed to do certain things?