To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

How come? Are you disagreeing that humans can be divided into two sexes? Or is it more that people of the same sex have little in common?

I disagree but am interested in whether you believe a group of men may be so unlike each other that they can't be classed as belonging to the same basic type of human.

Erm no. It really doesn’t mean the same thing. I specifically said ‘not all men’ in the ‘foolish and inflammatory’ OP.

I’d say we have now had countless PPs who have articulated this complex and nuanced topic in a more thoughtful way than I could have (off the top of my head @Naptrappedmummy @BallaiLuimni @NothingVenturedAndAllThat @Garlicking and there have been many others too ). So actually I’d say it has generated a sensible discussion.

Spot on.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I have asked you several questions that you haven’t annswered and you seem to be very critical of a lot of others’ posts without actually offering any of your own opinions.

Will you answer any of these 🤔?

You have said that peoples perceptions (of how many men hurt women and about how much they do in the house) causes prejudice. Do you think men are largely prejudiced against?

Do you believe that men in general view and treat women as equals?

The latter, of course. I don't believe in gender woo but I also don't feel that I have something in common with all women just because I happen to have two x chromosomes, nor do I think that all men can be as you put it 'classed as belonging as the same basic type of human'. Surely much of feminism is about resisting that idea about women, so it surely makes no sense to insist on it about men.

I’ve mentioned this before on here, but I once had to discipline a gay member of my team because of the way he spoke to and about our female colleagues. He seemed to think he could get away with calling them slags and bitches because he’s gay.

@LovelyTheresa, feminism is predicated on recognition that women - the FEM part being 'female' - have needs & rights that are denied by reason of our sex.

Some of those needs & rights are directly linked to our female biological functions, whether or not they function as expected in some individual women. Others are general human needs & rights, denied to women but afforded to men.

This is what feminism means by 'women as a class'. We're a 'class' in the statistical sense, classification as female.

There's a saying that goes "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels likes oppression" and I think that's how a lot of men feel about women and that applies to the decent men too who might not consider themselves part of the problem but do still benefit from the privilege that comes with being male in a society that favours men.

Bang on. I think “hate” is too strong and active a word. There are some men who hate women, yes. But vast majority just have a very ingrained sense of innate entitlement and lack of awareness of how much women as a class are still disadvantaged. Of which the majority are unaware.

Even the supposedly “progressive” ones and the ones who profess to be feminists. They don’t understand that their entire class is oppressing our class through its existence.

And however progressive they think they are, they can’t get their heads around women being, or wanting to be, autonomous. It just doesn’t compute for them.

BTW I don’t think they are all arseholes. Some of them genuinely try really hard. But as the PP said they are fundamentally uncomfortable with equality when faced with it in their own relationship.

Do you think men are largely prejudiced against?

I assume you’ve missed the word “women” from that question. In this thread I think assertions are being expressed about men as a class based on preconceptions not data, and that is prejudice. Some men are prejudiced against, but rarely on grounds of sex, often on other grounds which include things like race, sexuality, gender identity, socioeconomic status, educational background, athletic ability, intellect, appearance... And those grounds are exactly the same for women too.

Do you believe that men in general view and treat women as equals?

Following on from above, I think the majority of men are wired to try to get in front of everyone, including other men. I don’t know all men and I don’t think it’s useful to try and assign behaviours to “all men”, “men in general”, “all women” or “women in general”.

I would never try to say something like “all Jews are…” or “Muslims in general are…” - I would justifiably be considered antisemitic or islamophobic for doing that. I would try not do that based on sex either, unlike many posts in this thread / the OP.

I wouldn’t have agreed a decade or so ago, but I do now think there are far too many men that look down on or outright despise women. Just from online comments on news articles, anything making derogatory or put-down comments about women get a large number of likes.

I'm currently sat on the sofa with my husband and son so hopefully not.

I agree with the majority of this. I agree that men can be discriminated against based on other aspects of their identity as in as a black man, or a gay man but not explicitly because they are men. Whereas I do think that women are discriminated against based on this alone.

I think instead of assigning behaviours to all men, it’s more understanding the shared (or dominant) views that men share in relation to women. This is the only way to counteract them. For example: if (not saying this is true) but if a majority of men think that women deserve to be treated differently based on their level of promiscuity, then this is something that needs addressing and boys need education on this…

Similarly to historically when the large majority of white people saw black men as threatening, aggressive, dangerous to whites women etc. It was important to address that this was a shared or dominant opinion among white people in order to challenge and change it.

This is bang on and I agree with you too. And it’s why for me the OP is being unreasonable, because framing the issues as “[all] men just hate women” is not a useful lens to understand or address any of the problems.

In fact it creates more problems, because it just opens a door for erroneous and clumsy assertions about men based on false preconceptions / false perceptions.

I do think men are prejudiced against as a class, in several ways, but not to the extent that women are.

For example, there are still societal expectations that men be breadwinners, not carers, and that they (to be candid, we) should not show/share vulnerability/sadness. Some men would be happier to be primary caregivers (but societal pressures, and sometimes laws, dont facilitate this as well as they could), and many would benefit from more emotional openness, but it is discouraged, and probably a large contributor to higher suicide rates.

Men are absolutely, unequivocally, net benefactors of the patriarchy and enjoy far more privilege than women. I do think it’s true, though, that the patriarchy harms (and discriminates against) everyone - but in different ways and to very different extents.

I agree with this too. But as you say, prejudice against men is a lot less damaging or life threatening in general.

Not sure about that part though. More men are victims of male violence than women are, and I think those acts of violence are often perpetrated due to either inequality, or the prejudices I listed earlier.

My sons don't. Adults with very healthy relationships. Pull their weight, share everything, raised by a single Mum.
To generalise gives them an out. Better to make them take responsibility for their actions.

I think some of the worst misogyny comes from a particular demographic of gay men (maybe the more masculine ones). As they don't desire women they don't see any benefit from them.

Yeah but they’re due to the prejudices associated with other aspects of their identity- not just due to them being male.

Take sex out of it, at the end of the day people respond to behaviour. If you want to be respected you need to be respectable. We disregard plenty of men who fail too.

You don't know who is liking the comments, though. A lot of women are very misogynistic.

Men get a lot of “it’s gay to be a dad” (I KNOW RIGHT!!?) stuff flung their way. Ridicule because you skip beers to go home to the kids after work. These things can have some workplace / career / social disadvantages. I think those are examples of men facing judgement or prejudice because of their sex. Not equating this with the prejudice women face due to their sex, but be aware that it exists, and is perpetrated mainly but not exclusively by other men.

Do you really honestly think that women in power are all peace loving sweethearts?! Let me bring to your attention a certain Queen of England and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

It’s also not possible for men to change “as a class”. A class is just a generalisation of individuals. There are no policies or memos circulated among men setting out what’s next on the patriarchy’s agenda. It’s not an intentional situation, it’s not a centrally coordinated agenda - it’s a complex interplay of so many factors. Women are also complicit in war. Men - without choice if conscripted - bear the burden of the majority of fighting and dying, but in the main they are supported by women while they do so.