To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

Without deep diving, the first couple of recent studies I pulled (for the UK and Canada - I live in the latter) found the average to be a 60:40 split in terms of unpaid domestic work, with men doing more paid work.

It’s a dense topic though - that’s my quick google answer.

I don't think that men hate women. I do feel as though many men still see women in particular roles or serving some sort of purpose.
I expect their own mothers modelled this to them, doing what their mothers did too. Their fathers showed them how women should be treated as that is what they were taught too.
Men need to re-evaluate their perception of female roles and women need to stop conforming to them.

I see this from several different angles.

I grew up with wonderful men in my family.
Yet I had children with a man who attempted to strangle me and refused to pull his weight either financially or domestically (I left him).
Years later I have a fantastic husband who does more cooking and housework than me and an adult son who I've worked very hard to raise so he sees women as equals.

I like men. A lot. I still think as a class they are problematic.

There are enough good men to show that it's not inevitable and is massively tied to cultural norms and socialisation. Unfortunately, the predominant culture reinforces the problem.

What I've noticed is that many men treat women as equals when those women demand it. I've worked in a male dominated career and not had too much of an issue for example. However, when women don't or can't demand it, the veneer slips. Which tells you everything you need to know about how they really feel about women deep down (even if they don't themselves realise it).

Research is consistently published which shows that women do significantly more domestic chores (not including child care) than men and that men significantly overestimate how much they 'pull their weight' (often because they don't even consider the mental load). Every time a man does this he is using male privilege and treating his partner as lesser even if that same man would never dream of being abusive.

Raising boy/girl twins has really opened my eyes to the different messages boys and girls get growing up. I've had to work damn hard to counter them.

Yet, proportionately, male victims are more likely to survive a serious assault by another man than female victims, simply because of their physique. It’s not rocket science. (At the same time, I can be concerned about male victims - that’s normal).

However, 2.6 murders of women p/wk as a result of male violence is, all things considered, a catastrophe. I genuinely find it curious when safeguarding is equated with hysteria.

The older I get the more I think who cares if men hate, resent us or see us as less than.

I don’t particularly like them as a group. Yes I love the individual men in my life but as a group they have shared traits that I think are pretty shit and I don’t care if that’s just ‘my perception.’

They don’t seem to care whether we hate them or not. We spend our lives caring about what they think too much and they use it to keep us down.

Yes.

Some men don't repect women. Others do.

And those women need to stop doing it.

Stop being martyrs.

Stop having children with useless men.

Stop marrying useless men!

Men can display a level of evilness that I don’t believe most women could display.
Some of the most heinous crimes ever were always committed by men.

A “large proportion” of men ?

What percentage of men murder women ?

Yes, to the UK.

Just more prejudice. When you can’t address the topic do you always go for the messenger ?

It has a different impact. I don't know any men who are afraid of being followed by strange women at night. No policewoman has ever picked up a man to murder him for fun.

Mine is at this very moment , upstairs in a huff.
Behaviour of a two year old

YABU. I don't know any of these awful men that seem to appear on a daily basis on this site. I do think that there is some terrible and violent male behaviour, but to extrapolate from that that 'men hate women' is simplistic and reductive and unhelpful. Also sneering comments about NAMALT and 'not my Nigel' are very silly IMO. I mean, what do you want women who know decent men to say?

We have to care because their hate,resentment and contempt affects every aspect of our lives, including our actual lives.

It's not like they're calmly and quietly getting on with it , is it?

I think women have only been seen as people for about 100 years and the men are still getting used to it.

It doesn't help that too many bad men are rewarded for it. Women love bad boys, particularly younger women. Then they treat women badly because they're arseholes.

Even prominent killers get showered with love letters in prison.

I'm sure some do, but thinking of my interactions with men today, I've seen nothing but respect.

-A highly respected professional, with a title no less, talking in absolutely glowing terms about a female professional in our field

-A board of largely middle aged men hanging onto every word the incredibly talented young female finance director had to say

-My own presentation to same board challenged in a professional way to show engagement, but respected and agreed

-Female colleague singled out for praise by one of her male peers

• A man I know through sport asking me for advice on training

• And men quick to move out of my way, as I bundled myself and my bags onto a train

Maybe it is all an act/good manners, but I don't think any of us are completely authentic in our behaviour towards others all the time. That's what's manners are after all.

I mean, I certainly think there are some cases where women aren't even trying to make sure their male family members are contributing, but I think mostly it's about not having the mental stamina for yet another hours-long argument that'll result in him doing a piss poor job so you don't ask again. Because are you really gonna kick that argument off again? Probably not. I also think it's really difficult to understand exactly how fatiguing a relationship like that can be unless you've been in one.

Which just leaves us with 'Why stay then?' and IIRC there are an estimated 800 ish barriers to women leaving relationships.

I think what absolutely would help is a firmer emphasis on the importance of a woman having her own income, beginning in childhood. I certainly didn't feel it was especially important until after I'd had a couple of kids. It was never explicitly said to me at any point, either. Just something I began to realise slowly. A lot of women grow up in families and communities where there isn't a lot of emphasis (if any) on female independence. That's not helpful.

But mostly I think let's put the blame for selfishness where it absolutely belongs: with the men exploiting the labour of their female relatives.

Edit: I also think a lot of women who haven't experienced this underestimate the level of squalor men who behave this way are prepared to live in. If you have kids, you can't afford to wait around for him to do it because then the kids suffer. Going on strike just results in the house becoming unfit for human habitation and he'll say 'Well I don't care so why should I clean it? If you want a tidy house, you tidy it.' So then we're back to point B: obstacles to leaving. It's a shit show.

Weird how women defending men , never ever know a guy "like that". I mean if you've never had the misfortune of being dismissed, discriminated against, harassed, attacked etc. or worse by a man, lucky you. But let's not pretend that it doesn't happen, or that your experience is common.

The stats speak for themselves when you look at violence against women and girls (sexual assaults,harassment,rapes,dv,murder etc). Who are the men doing it ? They must be someone's dad,uncle,cousin, husband,son etc.

Personally I think no matter how enlightened they consider themselves their mind jumps to SEX every time they meet a new female. So they have complete contempt for a woman they consider too old or not attractive enough. And they’ll pretend to be respectful and decent to somebody the right age and attractive but it’s a thin veneer to sleep with them.

And that’ll take different forms according to the circumstances - for example a man may be married and not pursue an affair. But he will still be nicer to a woman he finds objectively hot than one he doesn’t.

I don’t think it’s necessarily conscious either, I think it’s almost like a reaction which they don’t always realise they have. It’s so deeply ingrained it’s just there and their default state.

Thanks for your comment @IvorTheEngineDriver

The (ex) counsellor in me wonders what’s really going on under that indifference, given that they must encounter women in daily life - there are quite a lot of us! 🤔

How do you know that my experience 'isn't common'? Maybe you just know shit men? I'm not saying that I've never had anyone be inappropriate ever, but I've certainly never been attacked and I don't know anyone else who has, either. I will admit that I am lucky enough to live in a fairly wealthy area and I am upper middle class, but according to the die hard misandrists that wouldn't shelter me, so I'm not sure what to say.

"I hate generalisations"
"It's unfair to generalise!"

OK, let's go with that 🙂 So:

Humans have an unspecified number of legs, arms and eyes.
Some winters may be colder than some summers.
The cost of living may or may not have changed.
Shoes exist, but nobody can say what they're for.
Traffic in the UK drives on any side of the road.
The people of France speak some language or other.
It's not true that grass is green.

None of those statements is inaccurate - but how useful are they? Wouldn't it be better to, you know, generalise based on overwhelming norms?