To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

A final attempt at explaining.

1. Violence against someone <> Hating someone.
   Violence is complex and can be caused for many different reasons like money, jealousy, anger, power, dominance etc. An as example rape is mostly about power which is not the same as hatred. This is why the most prolific serial rapist in the UK is a gay man who raped other gay men, and it wasn't because he hates men as a group.

2. If men attack indiscriminately other men, women, children, animals <> Men hate men, women, children, animals.
   As point 1, it just means men are more likely to be violent than women.

3. The fact is that a man is more likely to be attacked by a man (as we know men on men violence is higher than men on women). Yet most men are not walking around in fear of being attacked or thinking every man they meet hates them. So I personally do not subscribe to the notion that women need to be scared of men as a group OR that stats prove men hate women.

4. And finally stats on how men commit more crime than women is utterly irrelevant. Men commit more crimes on EVERYONE. We aren't at more risk just because we're women. Gay men are at risk. Children are at risk. Certain minorities may be at risk. But they don't think men as a group hate them. There are far more male paedophiles than female paedophiles, yet we aren't raising children to be scared of every man they meet or think all men hate them.

Not sure it’s about beating with a stick but isn’t mumsnet a women’s forum? For women to share thoughts, experiences and ideas?

If I wanted the general opinion of everyone in AIBU I’d post on Reddit or somewhere else surely.

@OodlesPoodle men have a fighting chance, so they don’t walk around looking over their shoulder. Women don’t. It’s science, innit.

If you can’t compute violence as a measure of hatred, I can’t help you.

That’s an interesting report, good find. And it shows that in some cases (6%) the women were acquitted, and that’s excellent, as it should be.

The perception expressed a bit further up thread was that men murder at a rate of thousands to tens of thousands of times higher than women.

This reminded me of other wrong perceptions driven by prejudice, like the ones around asylum seekers and benefits, or black youths and knife crime.

We cannot use these false perceptions driven by prejudice to jump to false conclusions like “all young black men carry knives” or “all asylum seekers live for free in luxury accommodation” or “all men just hate women”.

Men of the type you are thinking about OP do not hate women.

They are indifferent towards them. Which is worse.

(Bloke here BTW).

Again, it's interesting that men have to kill women to demonstrate hatred, but women just saying that they feel like men's behaviour generalised across the population doesn't look like they like women much is all women have to do to demonstrate hatred. Bit of an imbalance there.

That does clarify things a bit.

I probably should have mentioned that I don't think men hate women either - I sort of got bogged down in your points which I found hard to follow. I still think the whole 'men and dogs and teenage girls are equally threatening' point is nonsensical btw. Also in my experience, though we don't teach children that men hate them we do bring them up to be suspicious of men they don't know at the very least, for their own safety.

In terms of women being scared of men - I was certainly taught be scared of them. From a young age I was told not to go out late alone, not to wear certain things, not to get too drunk etc, because men were always out to get me. I am scared of men when I'm on my own because I know women who've been attacked in those situations. Men aren't taught to fear other men, I'm not sure why - because it goes against masculinity? It's an interesting question.

I don't really get your points about violence being motivated by things other than hate - that's true but I'm not sure it's that relevant really.

It’s also the Not my Nigel’s (love the phrase btw) that make you feel like everyone should feel grateful to have an equal partner.

If men range from shit (doing 0%) to amazingly wonderful husband of the year (doing 50%)…

And women range from luckiest woman alive (doing 50%) to doormat (doing 100%)…

Then surely on average men are still pretty crappy

You just invented percentages there.

@OodlesPoodle No critical thinking aloud, thanks very much. Unless you want to be met by a lots of ‘What??!!’ ‘You can’t be serious?!’ ‘Only someone without a brain would say that!!!’ and to quote old Greta T.. ‘How dare you?!!!!’

These are likely women. The same women who fought for women to have the right to join in conversations using their own independent thinking. Ironically, when women do have independent thought, they are shamed, overwhelmingly by women.

Sorry if anyone feels shamed but in my world grown women can take a bit of challenging without feeling any shame. I'd say Oodles has done a stellar job of defending their point and I have no power over them to make them feel shame. We don't agree, that sometimes happens among grownups.

Yet more men are attacked by men, murdered by men, mugged by men. So obviously they don't have a fighting chance or there would be minimal men on men violence OR men on women violence would be far greater than men on men.

This why the generalisation of men never works, and neither does the catastrophising by women of the threat to their lives. If we just followed the stats of how much risk we're really at, instead of hysterical media coverage (which is incidentally patriarchal BS to keep women living in fear), lives would bemuch happier.

It's actually not true that men don't fear each other. Small men, old men, weak men, men who do not fit masculine stereotypes, men who are part of groups that have rival male groups, they all fear stronger, younger, more powerful, more aggressive males. But the fact that men can be frightening and physically dangerous to anyone weaker than themselves isn't really the point of the thread. The point is, when they use that power against women, are they motivated by hatred.

Well it’s the general consensus on here. How many heterosexual relationships do you know where the man does way more than 50 % compared to how many where the woman does?

Do you genuinely think women and men today are equal contributors to their household?

We saw earlier in this thread how perceptions can differ wildly from truth.

I don’t understand this…

Do you think my perception of the distribution of labour within households is wildly different to the truth?

Knowing the real risk doesn't make my life happier. The fact that men also attack men makes things worse not better and the real stats are fairly horrifying.

It’s possible. Perceptions and speculation don’t help because they open the door to prejudice, like the person earlier who thought men were thousands to tens of thousands of times more likely to murder than women.

This is a particularly male talent, this patronising tone that implies superiority. It gives me this creeping feeling up the back of my neck, probably because men who have used it on me IRL usually do it in a vaguely threatening tone. Ugh.

Does anyone else visualise a certain facial expression when men speak this way?

I think my ‘perception’ that women still averagely do far more within their households than men is rooted in enough circumstantial knowledge and experience not to be just a baseless assumption.

You can insist that my perception isn’t true but I’m asking what yours is. Do you think that I’m wrong and the distribution of labour between men and women is close to equal?

It might be equal, Bex, how could we ever know? We must only accept peer reviewed studies, for fear that we may be prejudiced. Never forget that one person on the thread made an overblown claim. We must not have that happen <superior man expression>

Yes, it's quite easy to find those groups. Try: Jews; disabled people; brown-skinned people in majority pale societies; Uyghurs in China; refugees anywhere; I could fill a couple of pages - and so could you, I'm sure.

If most men hated women then they would have killed us off long ago.

They can't if they want to have children.
They can't if they're heterosexual.
They don't because they use us as a servant class.
They do keep our numbers down by killing us.
Over 100 million women are 'missing' from the world population.

😂😂😂😂

Actually I shouldn’t laugh too much - we might be seen as some kind of evil cackling coven of witches if we dare to group together and share opinions…

Brrrrrrrrr, my figures were a guess, as I said.
Your figures relate only to England and Wales. I wonder what the worldwide figures would be, even if we could obtain accurate ones.

OodlesPoodle, in my view, your points 2 and 3 add information without countering the original points.
Point 1, well perhaps it is about how we define hatred:

“Mostly not active rage filled hatred but there's widespread low level contempt and very much a feeling a woman's role is at least in part as domestic appliance.
Coupled with typical male entitlement in the form of the belief their wants and needs should be prioritised and reactions ranging from bewilderment to rage if that is not the case, and yeah, it's something that feels very much like hate.”

Hatred or whatever the above attitudes denote, is expressed in other ways other than murder, from micro aggressions and disdain to violence and intimidation. Since we have mentioned Couzens, he was notorious amongst his peers for being dodgy with women, was even nicknamed the Rapist.
Somehow, the likes of Allitt and Letby don't have the same nuances.

Oh, just seen garlicking's post… interesting.

”It’s possible. Perceptions and speculation don’t help because they open the door to prejudice, like the person earlier who thought men were thousands to tens of thousands of times more likely to murder than women.”
Maybe my perception isn't that skewed…