To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

This is rubbish, and this sort of sweeping generalisation toward left wing politics makes me really angry. It’s not what being left wing is all about. My DH and I are socialists, he doesn’t believe TWAW, he isn’t superior, and he understands that there are some things about being a woman we can’t fully comprehend so he defers to those that do. Oh and he doesn’t hate women, and he does more than his share of housework!

Are a large portion of men murdering women? Are you talking about the UK?

I think a lot of men just don’t see women as fully actualised people with thoughts and feelings as valid as their own. It’s not active hatred or even contempt, it’s a superiority complex built on all the societal messages that men are more important and should be prioritised.

I haven't read all the posts but I'm willing to bet they include a mix of:

a) women with widespread first hand experience of men being misogynistic who broadly agree with OP (I am one of these women) ;

b) women who take the bigger picture view and lament how misogyny is embedded in society, perhaps with well developed feminist arguments and interesting stats to back them up (I wish I had more of these women in my life IRL) ;

c) women who are adamant that 'not all men are like that' because... e.g. my DH/ DF/ DS is just lovely ;

d) women who say that something which basically means 'if men are hateful to women it's only because women deserve it' ; and

e) men, mansplaining either in plain slight or masquerading as c) or d).

👏👍😂

Are you a man? @Notamum12345577 ?! I’d put money on it!
you think you do 50% but you don’t….

I think at a species level we are predators, incredibly successful predators that have balanced a willingness to use violence to protect ourselves, to win resources, to dominate against an ability to cooperate and form incredibly complex societies.

At a sex based level it is men have adapted to most often be the instrument of that violence, both physically and psychologically. This has played a key historical role in human’s “success” - we could easily have died out in the last few thousand years at the hands of other predators which were more willing and able to use violence then us. I don’t think “we” would be here if we weren’t very good at this, we’d just be another part of the fossil record.

Sadly that propensity to violence isn’t controlled by a switch. On a societal level and at an individual level it needs to be controlled, and unfortunately that control is imperfect, at both levels.

At a societal level that means too much tolerance, or encouragement of toxic masculinity. Then at an individual level you get the usual bell curve - some men with a propensity for violence/dominance that is so deeply buried it might as well not exist, a whole load of men in the middle who show varying degrees of success in controlling it or directing it in other ways, and then a very dangerous few at the other end of the spectrum who actively embrace it.

Along that same bell curve you will find all sorts of stories of people, often women, who have suffered when those same men have failed to control or have actively embraced their propensity for violence and dominance.

In that sense I don’t think men hate women, but I do think women (and society as a whole) suffers as collateral damage to the ingrained violence and desire to dominate and win which is both a key part of our success as a species but possibly also the thing that will tear us apart.

Replace the word “man” or “men” with “muslim” or “muslims” and see how fucked up this thread is. You can’t generalise groups of people like this without revealing your own hatreds.

Did you just “not all men”? How quaint!

Do Muslims commit the majority of violent and sexual crime? No they don't. Males do, which is what is being discussed. Some may be Muslims granted.

What a ridiculous post.

You're being ridiculous op.
You all bang on about how terrible men are, yet you're quite prepared to live, sleep and have kids with them.
If they don't pull their weight in the house then that's because it's facilitated by the very women who gripe about them.
So if all men are as bad as you're making them out to be then why aren't you all celibate and single.

If anything, this thread shows the opposite.

Hate isn't the right word for what you mean. Very few men actually "hate" women.

However...

Men see the female half of the human race as creatures created to service them, and as their subordinates, their property, their prey and their punchbags.

The service element encompasses domestic services, sexual services, compassion, care, sympathy, a listening ear, and bolstering their ego.

If men want us, then we are supposed to stick by them, no matter how they treat us. This is why so many cases of femicide involve a woman who is planning to leave, or has left, the man. He sees her as his property. How dare she try to have a life without him.

If men no longer want us, we are supposed to scuttle away quietly, expecting nothing, and never complain or reveal any of their abuse to others.

We are supposed to let them behave abusively but not tell anyone. It has to be a secret.

I am reminded of a boyfriend I had 4 decades ago who instantly used physical violence on me if I ever dared contradict or reproach him, for example for stealing my money. When he found out I had confided in someone, he was so aggrieved. He acted hurt and pouted, like I had done something wrong. How could I expose our private matters to others? I had betrayed him. What went on between us was nobody's business but ours. It was disloyal for me to wash our dirty linen in public. Now people would think badly of him, and it was all my fault.

Did you just patronise ? Bless you dear.

It is plainly unreasonable to believe that “men just hate women”.

Totally agree. All watched by someone's son/father/coworker/friend. It's how they behave when no-one who might hold them to account is watching that reveals all.

That's a ridiculous generalisation. SOME men hate women and SOME women hate men, possibly because they have met some of those women-haters.

People who post on MN have problems in their life that they are asking about. Many who respond are attracted to do so because the subject of the post resonates with them in some way. So if a post is complaining about a man, it likely attracts more posters who feel similarly.

The men in my life are decent people. I never post negative comments about men in general as that has not been my experience.

That John Scalzi piece linked up thread is brilliant!

I think it’s not only men who hate women, it’s women who hate women.

No but of the women that are murdered a large proportion of them are murdered by men.

Yet it’s not the same way for men murdered. It’s still them doing it.

Men don't hate women. But I think they absolutely do think they are just "better". Those words that men HATE being accused of are 100% true - they are entitled and they hold privilege.

And actually, I think it is genuinely almost all men.... to start. I think that society tells them they are better, they see men in positions of power and responsibility at much higher proportions than women and they subconsciously learn these things (just as the girls do).

However, LOTS of men - many of them the husbands and fathers and sons and brothers of the women on this thread, are smart enough and sensible enough to actually start to think about these issues. Many will continue to push back on being called "entitled" or "privileged" but they might nonetheless make efforts to to step up. The really really good ones, will do the work to really consider the truth about privilege and entitlement.

My DH is a great example. Artistic, liberal, 100% one of the good guys. But if you ask him, he will freely admit that in the 20 odd years we've been together, he's had to work through a lot of instinctive responses that when I challenged him on, and he thought about, he realised he had these biases and then he's done the work to move past this and to be a genuine, active advocate for women.

This is vs his brother who is also liberal, thoughtful etc... but who has never actually put the work in to identify and think about his privilege so spends a LOT of time pontificating and mansplaining issues while genuinely believing he is supporting women or minorities or whatever it is.

I also find it MIND BLOWING how many women on this thread claim that every single man they know is genuinely doing 50%, stepping up etc etc etc. In real life, I only know a few and I 100% know that in almost every single case, getting to that point required a lot of effort from both the man and his female partner because it just didn't happen instinctively. And that includes my DH, my BIL, my BF's DH etc.

Basing your opinion on what you have read on mumsnet would be unreasonable, people write on this forum looking for advice on issues that they have in their lives, no one is going to write posts about the good men in their lives ( why would they) so you are only reading about bad cases.
Spending too much time on mumsnet would give anyone the impression that everyone’s life / relationship was miserable and problematic when that is not the case, many people have good relationships with good men they just don’t write about it on this forum….because why would they

I find this talk of 50-50 housework rather silly.

I know a man who always did at least half the housework and laundry, yet he also lorded it over his wife, neglected her, and was verbally and physically abusive.

Of those men who are violent (which is a minority of men) most of them are violent towards other men, and to a lesser extent towards women.

It is not possible to conclude from “acts of violence” that men “just hate women”. You can conclude that some men are more violent than other men, and men as a class are more violent than women.

I think that men have an inbuilt propensity to be more selfish and more violent and towards risky behaviour, which to be honest is also positive in some settings (war, protection of your village). That doesn't mean that all men are the lowest common denominator of man.

There's a lot that is socially determined. You can see this when you look at the rates of sexual violence in war - all wars sadly have sexual violence (because there are a proportion of damaged men who are signed up soldiers because they have more violence and less empathy built or trained in who don't need any excuse once they are somewhere where rules don't apply), but some troops seems to do this more than others. It's definitely about the culture.

I don't hate men. I am married to a decent one, but one who is a bit oblivious due to all male boarding school background.

I am disappointed in men as a class, to be honest. I think that men don't want to advocate for women or stamp out bad behaviour in other men and don't "see" a lot of things. Until they have daughters!