AIBU for telling my friend that being a SAHP and working full time are both equally difficult?

[AnitaLovesIndianFood]

sorry, this is a long post

So my best friend won’t talk to me for days now.

Basically she had an argument with her DH about division of labour in the house. She said that she expects her husband to also do housework when he comes home from his 60 hour a week job as a GP. He says that he is too tired and needs to rest when he is home, but she says “I work 24 hours as a SAHP, so should you”.

She then vented to me and asked my opinion. I personally believe that being a SAHP isn’t as hard as people say it is. BEFORE people jump down my throat, this is my own personal opinion based on personal experience. Both my husband and I had our turns being stay at home parents with both of our children. When one of us was staying home, we made sure that the one working outside the house had to do minimal work in the house. Both of us agreed that having the ability to stay at home and watch our children grow up with a privilege rather than a burden. Again, that’s just our opinion.

Anyway, back to my friend. When she first had kids, she dictated to her husband that she was going to stay at home while he works, even though I remember him asking they could divide the home and work duties so that they both get equal time with the kids. She didn’t agree, and I remember her telling me that she finds a man who wants to be at home unattractive.

Fast forward to now. When she asked me if I think her husband is being unreasonable by not helping in the house when he comes home, I said that I agree with her husband. I’ve seen how hard my local GP works; countless 10 minute appointments one after the other, making potentially life changing decisions in each of them. I can only imagine how exhausted my friend’s husband is. Of course he needs to switch his mind off after such a mentally taxing work.

I then politely reminded her of how she chose this, she refused to accept an arrangement with her husband in which childcare is shared, so now she needs to live with her decision. I again asked her how she would feel if her husband was to reduce his hours to part-time, and she started working part time again so that they could both equally split the home duties.

She then refused to talk to me, said that I was disrespecting all stay at home parents and that I’m a disgrace to women. She said that as a mum myself I should appreciate how difficult being a SAHP is. She basically wanted me to agree that her role is more difficult than his, even though she happily accepts the lifestyle associated with being married to a high earner.

Now she won’t talk to me until I be a good friend and take her side. I don’t know what to do, I’m risking throwing away a friendship I’ve had my whole life, but I fundamentally do not agree with her and I’ve never been someone to just agree for the sake of harmony.

What would you do? What can I do to make her forgive me without compromising my stance?

That's the crux of the matter really.

Often women who work long hours in demanding jobs still want to spend time with their children. They don't want others to completely take over their role as mother and nurturer even if they could afford to outsource more. Those women who can, will happily outsource housekeeping etc but they will try to ensure the best relationship they can between them and their children.

Not all obviously, and perhaps times are changing but a lot of men are quite happy and relaxed to have someone else do all the child rearing for them because they are already fulfilling the role they set out for themselves, providing for their family, they are content. They have picked a good life partner who is also a good mother, well done them.

Agree, I think we all try and find ways to find a happy balance for ourselves, I’m completely zapped on work days but want to have time with my children so balance that by only working 2 days a week. My children have me for 5 days and my work have me for 2, I don’t enjoy the days where I have to do both and if can arrange my DH to have those days off or can outsource elements then do that. Many female GPs who are mothers that I know of work part time. My DH is a brilliant dad but prefers to work full time with the advantages that go with full time working in terms of career opportunities and pay etc, that benefits the whole family. The kids are happy, they don’t need him to work part time and he does beneficial work for society at large so I don’t see why there should be pressure on him to be super keen to cut down his hours and take on a greater domestic workload, obviously if he wanted to do that I would support him and we’d perhaps spend less on childcare or me work more. He appreciates that I need a break too and so before youngest started school was quite happy to pay for childcare and help round the house if I’d wanted. We’re not rich so this meant sacrifices in other areas such as cars and holidays, home improvements etc so we do live quite a frugal life to facilitate this. I’m also mindful that this means less money for other things I’d like for the family so just whatever I felt I really needed. We were both happier with this arrangement of respecting each others preferences, need for rest etc and kids seem happy, we might not have money for expensive days out but we still go out to country park, have an ice cream etc and neither of us unhappy or burnt out, so worked well for us all

I was going to say the same.

Much of what pp described is parenting in general.

All of these posters who say 100% this side is harder, ‘no matter what people say’.
aren’t friends/partners allowed to talk about how they are struggling and what they think would make it any better?

there are SO many variables to what makes life hard as a SAHP or full time worker. So many variables that may really impact both sides at various points. It is impossible for you to judge what is harder from someone else’s life.

sounds like your friend needed some validation that she also works hard and deserves support too! Even if she can’t get that when her DH is so busy, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve it or need it.

also. Personally, I am of the opinion that both partners should contribute to housework and child rearing when they are at home after the 9-5 or whatever times they are in their day roles for. SAHPs need a break too, even if that’s just small pockets of rest and personal time.

Personally, I am of the opinion that both partners should contribute to housework and child rearing when they are at home after the 9-5 or whatever times they are in their day roles for. SAHPs need a break too, even if that’s just small pockets of rest and personal time.

I think it depends on whatever the couple negotiate and agree between them, personally, and that will vary according to their individual circumstances. If the WOHP does a very stressful, demanding job, and the SAHP is looking after one or two healthy NT children, then personally I wouldn't think it was fair for everything to be shared equally when the WOHP came home, because the SAHP's day might be longer but it would be much less intense and demanding. However, if the WOHP's job is relatively easy and the SAHP is caring for a sick or disabled child all day, and/or wrangling pre-school triplets or similar, then that equation would obviously change.

I agree.

What can you do to protect yourself now? It’s not too late if you really want to make a difference to your future. Can you start a private pension, discuss it with your husband. Take on a part-time role, maybe just on a Saturday? Any courses or retraining that appeal?

Plan now and you won’t leave yourself as vulnerable. I am now in my fifties and some of my friends who gave up work are having regrets now the kids are at university.

if your husband is a decent man, he will understand your concerns and be proactive in helping you put a plan together.

How many kids does she have and how old are they? If she has 1 school age kid and not working she is being extremely unreasonable. Depends on the context.

Yeah YABU - good for you that you have easy kids and took everything in your stride. That's not the reality for many people and not everyone is born with the skill set or perhaps they over parent which is in their nature and work hard at it.

However what is fair is that they both need down time when they finish work but they also both need to contribute outside of those times. With SAHM they often don't get the same rights to it: Your friend would be better of chunking up her time - 60 hours of labour (childcare & housework) and her husband does 60 hours of work. The remainder of the time should then be split between childcare & housework & down time.

Lastly, you are her friend not her husbands so why on earth would just not have her back? I find some of the discussions on her odd as you are basically being a crap friend.

she'd made her choice but as she's the one doing the lion share of the household chores she's not liking it. It is difficult for some SAHM more than others and not everyone finds having their children with them 24/7 as easy as you have found it....... However, its completely unfair to expect someone to do an equal share of something (housework) unless they are splitting the paid work (GP job) equally too. I have been both and although i expect some kind of contribution from my husband, as he is out working each day earning the money that keeps us living our life, i see my SAHM as my 'work' all be it unpaid as such. She's just annoyed she's not able to gloat back to her DH that you agree with her and not him.......... leave her to sulk, doesn't sound like a type of person i'd really want as a BF

Oh scrap my comment. You are a parasite landlord so says it all about your character really...you didn't 'work your butt off' you exploit others using capital...

I don't really understand why people who find being a SAHP particularly difficult don't just go back to work. Is it that they're trapped at home because they are unlikely to earn enough to cover the costs of childcare?

I can't see that children are likely to benefit particularly from having a SAHP who is struggling with the role and finding it difficult. Kids are usually pretty perceptive and pick up on that kind of stuff quite quickly - I know I did.

Edit: Obviously, I appreciate that parents of disabled children sometimes have no choice, and that's a totally different scenario. However, I would regard them as FT carers rather than SAHPs.

What the fuck? 😂

I imagine it's for various reasons.

Some think it is best for their children even if it makes them miserable
They enjoy being a martyr
Like you said, they can't afford childcare fees
Religious/cultural reasons - they believe women belong at home

Though in the case of OP's friend, I'm leaning more towards martyr since childcare fees wouldn't be an issue and she seems to enjoy complaining but doing nothing about it such as bringing up her DH going part time and her getting a part time job so they can share things more evenly.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves @SouthLondonMum22

In my case I loved being a SAHM on the whole, but struggled towards the end of that SAH decade when I was off with DS. Purely because of the 5 year age gap between the kids and sometimes it just felt it was neverending.

It was because we thought it was best for the kids to have me off with them. I'd never even looked at childcare (never entered our heads even, so wouldn't have known how much it'd have cost)

We were young parents and in both mine and DH families, our mums were SAHM and housewives who never worked again, so it felt like the natural thing to do because we just did what we'd seen, if that makes sense.

Yes, it does make sense I suppose.

My own mum was also a SAHP but it didn't suit her, which always made me feel incredibly guilty as a kid. So it would never occur to me that it would be best to SAH for the kids if the SAHP was struggling. I always wished that my mum would go and get a job because I just wanted her to be happy!

Theres a big difference between doing all of the housework and childcare, and doing all of the housework and childcare and picking up after an adult who does absoultly nothing since having children because their partner is SAHP even though they did before with the same job

Is this possibly what your friend is butting up against?

Women who go back to work don't get the same deal as the other working parent usually. They still tend to have the majority of the household stuff to do. Maybe that factors into it?

It's not strange or being a martyr to want to SAH with your own baby / child. It's 100% normal for the vast majority of women. Some people on here talk as if babies in nurseries all day is the default course of action. It is not.

It's rare for men to experience the emotional and physical separation from a baby or young child as acutely as a woman. Let's not pretend is the same when it's not.

I was a SAHM and I loved it. For me, it was a very simple question - where will my baby be happiest, day to day. That place was with me. Why would I pay someone to do a lesser job than I can do myself? It wasn't about me. It was about the baby and their experience, day to day, hour to hour. Because this was my motivation, I was never really bored and definitely not unfulfilled because I undedtooox the importance of what I was doing. The alternative would have been far worse - I would go as far as to say unimaginable, from my point of view.

DH is very hands on, but he's a different personality to me in that he wouldn't have the patience to adapt himself to the baby's agenda, day in day out. It's nowhere near the same thing as being around evenings and weekends. It wasn't about housework - we had a cleaner and aside from that, if something needs doing we'd just do it. Never argued about that kind of thing.

For me, my priorities totally changed after children and I just didn't care about ins-and-outs of work any more. DH reacted in a very different way to me following children - he said he felt a provider instinct come over him like never before. So that's how we felt and it wasn't complicated at all. 22 years later, we have more financial stability than if we'd tried ti be 50/50 on everything (as recommended on here). For us, it would have been much more stressful, financially counterproductive and very restrictive - like limiting each other, rather than supporting each other to do what we want and to do it well.

OP, I have no idea why you are presuming to have a 'stance' on behalf of your friend's husband. Weird. You have no idea what's what between them and I don't know why you're now going on about it on MN. Obviously, just apologise to her and say it's none of your business.

I can understand that.

Obviously there will be exceptions but statistics show that daughters of SAHM’s are more likely to be SAHM’s themselves.

It’s one of the reasons why I wouldn’t be a SAHM.

I’ve done both. For equal amounts of time. For me, SAHM was a LOT easier . When I was working long hours in a challenging job I was absolutely good for nothing when I got home. My brain was still whirling, hard to switch off, absolutely depleted from dealing with ill people all day. Maybe had I had a different 9 to 5 job that wasn’t so physically and mentally draining it would gave been different but SAHM was a walk in the park in comparison.

This...

A full time working parent in my opinion works a lot harder as chores/cooking/parenting still need doing...after working full-time hours.

And what’s wrong with being a SAHM? You say it as it’s a shameful thing?

I decided to be a SAHM after doing a huge amount of research into child psychology and attachment and decided what was best for my children. (I’m aware I am very fortunate to have this option).
Im taking 6 years off work for my children and then returning to work in the exact same position as I left. Not working for 6 years doesn’t mean I’m not career driven or affect my future work. It’s not something to fear for your children to repeat, especially as it’s beneficial to them!

Yes, my mum was a SAHM until I went to school and then went back to work. So you are correct that I’ve repeated it. But I struggle to understand what is so wrong in that?

Nothing is wrong with being a SAHP if that's what you want out of life. There is certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

Personally, I would not want my dd to be a SAHP because I would not want her to miss out on other aspects of life that I consider to be important. Plus I would be sad if I didn't feel that she was making the most of her full potential - honestly speaking, I would perceive it as a waste of her many talents.

I appreciate that sentiment won't go down well with some, but it's how I feel. It isn't a judgement on what other people choose to do with their lives. Everyone is different. And of course, if dd decided that being a SAHP was all she wanted, then I would absolutely respect that choice. Luckily for me, I don't think there is any chance of that happening!

And yes, if it was only for a few years, that would be different. Some careers do allow for extended breaks without much detriment. The vast majority of people I know who became SAHPs ended up taking a huge step back in their careers though... very few were able to pick up exactly where they left off. And even when they did go back, most of them found that they had become the default parent and it was very difficult for them to get their relationships back on an equal footing.