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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think she shouldn't put him in tights?

635 replies

TotoroElla · 23/02/2024 23:01

Just trying to understand and find a way forward.

A family member's little boy is in foster care currently. He is 4 yo. The FC keeps putting him in tights. His mum is getting upset with it and doesn't understand why she keeps doing it. She has asked for her to stop and the SW has asked her to stop too. Mum doesn't feel it is very dignified for him to be at nursery wearing what is culturally a girls' clothes item. He was getting so hot in them the other day as of course he has trousers over them.

Can anyone shed any light as to why she is doing this or what his mum can do about it?

OP posts:
fakeprofile · 24/02/2024 00:23

sprigatito · 24/02/2024 00:21

I'm not sure it's appropriate for his mother to be dictating to his foster carer about details that don't have any safeguards implications, such as clothing choices. It's not workable. He's in the care of a foster carer who presumably is trained and supervised, so his mother needs to accept that and not attempt to micromanage. Would she complain he was given chicken nuggets for a quick dinner, or allowed a packet of Wotsits? Those are things some parents would consider poor choices for a toddler too, but they aren't outside the normal range of caregiving and they may well happen in a care setting. His mother would be better off leaving the foster carer to do her job and focusing on whatever the situation is that led to his being taken into care. If there are serious concerns about his care, the SW should be handling them.

Agree with this. In my area (and many others I believe), foster carers are few and far between. as long as the child is safe and well cared for, you really should pick your battles rather than antagonise the person who is presumably giving the child a secure home.

TheOriginalEmu · 24/02/2024 00:24

The bigger issue is the foster carer not taking mum and SWs opinion into account. I was a registered foster carer for 15 years and any time the parents had an issue with a thing I did, as long as it wasn’t about safety or health then it was my job to do it. Because it’s not about me, my job is to keep the child safe until they can be reunited with their family. Full stop.
I think this needs bringing up at a meeting about things. The foster carer isn’t god and should be listening.

BreadInCaptivity · 24/02/2024 00:26

sprigatito · 24/02/2024 00:21

I'm not sure it's appropriate for his mother to be dictating to his foster carer about details that don't have any safeguards implications, such as clothing choices. It's not workable. He's in the care of a foster carer who presumably is trained and supervised, so his mother needs to accept that and not attempt to micromanage. Would she complain he was given chicken nuggets for a quick dinner, or allowed a packet of Wotsits? Those are things some parents would consider poor choices for a toddler too, but they aren't outside the normal range of caregiving and they may well happen in a care setting. His mother would be better off leaving the foster carer to do her job and focusing on whatever the situation is that led to his being taken into care. If there are serious concerns about his care, the SW should be handling them.

It's absolutely a concern if the child is being dressed in clothing that is uncomfortable for them.

SEN children are often very reliant on people advocating for them and anticipating their needs.

The child's mother is still their mother even if the child is in FC and she and her family can and should advocate for their best interests.

Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:27

Opine · 23/02/2024 23:47

It’s normal in most of Europe to put tights on boys. The English are obsessed with boys versus girls clothing and that’s why children in the UK, especially boys, aren’t very well dressed. On holiday you can spot English children a mile off.

If your relative doesn’t like it she can just pass that onto the FC but the whole ‘undignified for boys’ argument is really ignorant.

I know my friends from Northern Europe do in the winter because it is freezing there - it isn't here! It is too warm for tights and trousers. That's a fact. I couldn't care less whether not wearing tights makes a child 'not well dressed' they should be comfortable in their clothes! I think the SW is just pointing out that only the girls of his peers will be wearing tights and as he can't express a preference he should be dressed like the other boys. It's completely different if it is cold and all the other boys will be wearing tights!

OP posts:
DyslexicPoster · 24/02/2024 00:29

Idk I put tights on my baby and toddler sons as they pulled their socks off at the childminders. Childminder was a very experienced woman and wasn't fazed at barefooted kids in all weather's, but it bovered me. All before they could talk though

Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:29

ZebraPensAreLife · 23/02/2024 23:48

I’m really surprised a social worker has the time or inclination to care about tights in the first place!

Or that anyone would think tights were “undignified” - has anyone told various actors?

Show quote history

I'm sure she wants him to be comfortable. Surely she should care about that. Various actors in what situations? Were they made to wear tights which made them hot and uncomfortable while all the other boys were nice and comfy in socks?

OP posts:
Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:30

Zoreos · 23/02/2024 23:49

As the child has sensory issues and is unable to advocate his needs for himself but you can see he’s too hot/ uncomfortable I would definitely push back against this big time. I’d keep binning the tights every time and explain firmly that as it’s expressly against the wishes of mum and SW has agreed that this needs to stop immediately. That and the fact it’s totally unnecessary and harming the child by making him too hot and uncomfortable. Why should the poor child continue to be uncomfortable because the FC is obviously batshit. Nobody of any sex needs tights under trousers in this weather. Make a formal complaint to social care. I’d also be speaking to nursery as well and making them aware of the situation.

Edited

Thanks for the advise.

OP posts:
Vye1988 · 24/02/2024 00:31

I think the language being used is the issue and will not help, feels awfully like making a mountain out of a molehill.

Next LAC review bring up that child gets very warm, can this being considered when dressing him, throw in a couple of options, e.g. if he is cold in the morning could he have a blanket in the car etc...

There is absolutely nothing undignified about a 4 year old yearing tights under trousers in the winter, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, and if a social worker said this to me I would ignore them too, and if they insisted on using the word 'undignified' I would complain.

My son is six and has worn tights in the winter because he spends a lot of time outside and gets cold. He did not stop being a boy when I bought them!

The issue is his comfort, not that a small child is wearing tights under trousers.

Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:34

NuffSaidSam · 23/02/2024 23:49

The only person who can answer that is her. None of us can tell you why she thinks he's cold . Maybe she's one of those people who also feels cold herself and so thinks he's cold too? Maybe her house is very cold? Maybe she was doing it over winter when it was cold and is just doing out of habit? Only she knows!

I think unless he's becoming dangerously overheated it's really not a big problem. Presumably, quite a small problem in the grand scheme of things if he's been removed from his parents! Does his mum give thanks for all the care he's getting from the foster carer or is it just moaning about him being a little bit warm in the clothes she dresses him in?

Show quote history

I think if he's hot and miserable then it is a big problem. Why should he have to suffer that?

I've not said he's been removed from his parents. Yes, she is thankful. But he's not a little bit warm. He's covered in red blotches and crying.

OP posts:
NewName24 · 24/02/2024 00:35

sprigatito · 24/02/2024 00:21

I'm not sure it's appropriate for his mother to be dictating to his foster carer about details that don't have any safeguards implications, such as clothing choices. It's not workable. He's in the care of a foster carer who presumably is trained and supervised, so his mother needs to accept that and not attempt to micromanage. Would she complain he was given chicken nuggets for a quick dinner, or allowed a packet of Wotsits? Those are things some parents would consider poor choices for a toddler too, but they aren't outside the normal range of caregiving and they may well happen in a care setting. His mother would be better off leaving the foster carer to do her job and focusing on whatever the situation is that led to his being taken into care. If there are serious concerns about his care, the SW should be handling them.

I agree with this completely.

Of course, we also don't know - as SEND has been mentioned - if there is a reason why the foster carer - and Nursery remember - have him in tights. The child has SEND. That is huge ranging and covers so many things. What might (without full information) seem like an unusual choice of clothing, may well have an absolutely sound reason behind it.
I say again, if the child were too hot, then the Nursery staff would have removed them. Nursery staff support NT children with choices about taking layers off, but are absolutely on it when working with children with additional needs. They would not leave him in clothing that was making him hot for 3 hours / 5 hours / 10 hours / however long he is there.
It might well be he is outside for most of his time too, which makes a difference of course.

Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:37

mathanxiety · 23/02/2024 23:49

The FC needs to do what the SW is asking her to do.

The choice to put a 4yo boy in tights under trousers is very odd in normal British winter weather. It's not the Yukon. And if it were the Yukon, parents would put padded snow pants/ bibs over normal indoor clothes and the snow gear would be taken off when the child came inside.

The SW's reason to object to the tights is odd. Boys do wear tights and tights-like thermals under trousers in some cultures and climates. It's not 'undignified'.

The other children shouldn't be allowed to make fun of their SEN classmate. Teachers need to protect him and encourage a more accepting atmosphere.

However -
How do you know all of this?
And how does the mum have so much first hand info wrt the child if he is in foster care?

I know it as I see him regularly with his mum. Just because a DC is in foster care it doesn't mean they don't see their parents.

OP posts:
DinnaeFashYersel · 24/02/2024 00:38

Are you bothered that he's hot?

Or are you bothered he's wearing a piece of clothing usually worn by girls?

At 4 the kids in the nursery don't care what others are wearing. They haven't yet been indoctrinated into adult gender stereotypes. They are not saying anything or even noticing.

Is this really an issue for the child or is it just an issue for you?

WearyAuldWumman · 24/02/2024 00:39

When I was studying in Moscow in the early '80s - as part of my Russian degree - I recall that little boys wore tights in the winter...but they were wearing them under short trousers.

Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:39

LuluBlakey1 · 23/02/2024 23:53

My DS2 is 4 and he would make it very clear he did not want to wear DD's woolly red tights to school. He wears long trousers, socks and his trainers, and with his outdoor jacket is quite warm enough- even today when it was 3 degrees here this morning.

Yes, this little boy probably would too if he could.

OP posts:
Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:45

FabFebHalfTerm · 23/02/2024 23:57

@TotoroElla

i hope his Mum gets well enough to get him back home asap. Could none of the family have moved in with them or had them move in to help instead of him going into FC?? She must be distraught.

However, you need to focus on him being too hot as the reason, that makes sense but (from your OP

Mum doesn't feel it is very dignified for him to be at nursery wearing what is culturally a girls' clothes item

does not.

Show quote history

There's only me and I have my own SEN DC. I would have had him if I could. I'm doing my best to help. She is distraught, yes, especially as everything is so up in the air.

I don't think I explained it well in my OP. But yes, it is probably easier and clearer to explain how hot he is getting. But I do understand the SW's point as does mum, although it did give her something else to worry about which wasn't very helpful.

OP posts:
Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:48

fakeprofile · 24/02/2024 00:02

I don’t have experience with social workers, but is it normal for a SW to be getting involved in such trivial matters!? Mum is clearly going through a hard time, but surely there are bigger priorities for her right now!

Maybe, but I think for a mum their child's welfare will always come above their own struggles even if unnecessary.

Perhaps she is more involved as a SEN SW. But I think she wouldn't have to get involved if the FC listened to mum.

OP posts:
Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:49

purpleme12 · 24/02/2024 00:02

Foster carer shouldn't be doing this.
At least, not if the parent doesn't want it.
Go back to social worker again about it.
It's not relevant here whether you or I would put a boy in tights. Over this matter, a foster parent should be working with the parent.

Thank you, I agree. Ultimately, mum has asked her to not put him in tights - whether she agrees or not, it's not hard to just put socks on him.

OP posts:
TheOriginalEmu · 24/02/2024 00:51

sprigatito · 24/02/2024 00:21

I'm not sure it's appropriate for his mother to be dictating to his foster carer about details that don't have any safeguards implications, such as clothing choices. It's not workable. He's in the care of a foster carer who presumably is trained and supervised, so his mother needs to accept that and not attempt to micromanage. Would she complain he was given chicken nuggets for a quick dinner, or allowed a packet of Wotsits? Those are things some parents would consider poor choices for a toddler too, but they aren't outside the normal range of caregiving and they may well happen in a care setting. His mother would be better off leaving the foster carer to do her job and focusing on whatever the situation is that led to his being taken into care. If there are serious concerns about his care, the SW should be handling them.

It’s absolutely appropriate that the mother ‘dictates’ to the foster cared about things that are not matters of safety. It doesn’t matter if the mothers reasons for not putting him in tights are the most ridiculous in the world, it is NOT the foster carers place to go against the parents wishes in this way. As foster caters we are told from the word go that parents opinions matter.

Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:52

AndThatWasNY · 24/02/2024 00:10

Don't use the term "use his words". Which sounds pretty victim blaming about a child in care.
He has almost certainly learnt that "his words" aren't being listened to many vital moments.

Show quote history

He just doesn't have many words. They are listened to and responded to with delight!

OP posts:
BreadInCaptivity · 24/02/2024 00:54

I’ve sent you a private message.

Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:55

NewName24 · 24/02/2024 00:16

I said that because his mum was upset about kids at nursery making fun of him as tights are usually put on girls.

This part is ridiculous. a) they wouldn't even know what he has on under his trousers and b) children in Nursery don't make fun of what other children wear. Seriously, all of them wonder round in all sorts of strange mixtures of clothing throughout the day.

If the Nursery has a little one with SEND, who is non-verbal, they will be very aware of how comfortable or otherwise he is temperature wise and would have left the tights off at nappy changing time if that were an issue.

So I am inclined to agree with all of those saying that you, and his birth mother are focusing on the wrong thing here.

I'm pretty sure they do take them off and put them back on at pick up time. We saw a photo of him at nursery recently with bare feet. I have told mum noone will make fun of him. She just worries and he is her first.

OP posts:
Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 00:57

BreadInCaptivity · 24/02/2024 00:19

Your sister need to take her concerns (potentially with your help) up with the SW again.

Ideally in writing and be detailed about your concerns which need to be child centric.

By which means don't focus on tights are not for boys but that he is too hot/uncomfortable (how do you know? How does he express this?) Be specific.

However be mindful that FC's are like unicorns and in short supply.

I'm not suggesting you don't raise concerns - you absolutely should, but I would be conscious of being very evidential and specific about the concern and what you want to achieve.

Thank you, that's very helpful.

OP posts:
Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 01:03

sprigatito · 24/02/2024 00:21

I'm not sure it's appropriate for his mother to be dictating to his foster carer about details that don't have any safeguards implications, such as clothing choices. It's not workable. He's in the care of a foster carer who presumably is trained and supervised, so his mother needs to accept that and not attempt to micromanage. Would she complain he was given chicken nuggets for a quick dinner, or allowed a packet of Wotsits? Those are things some parents would consider poor choices for a toddler too, but they aren't outside the normal range of caregiving and they may well happen in a care setting. His mother would be better off leaving the foster carer to do her job and focusing on whatever the situation is that led to his being taken into care. If there are serious concerns about his care, the SW should be handling them.

If only you knew all the things the FC tries to micromanage! The bottom line is the little boy is hot and miserable and it would be pretty odd for a parent (who knows the child best) not to speak up about it. As for chicken nuggets and wotsits - I think he'd be delighted with those so mum would be happy. I think if mum didn't have to worry about this she could concentrate on herself more so surely the kindest thing would be to just put him in socks. And the SW is trying to handle it and being ignored.

OP posts:
Original poster
TotoroElla · 24/02/2024 01:04

ZiriForGood · 24/02/2024 00:21

It's totally valid to discuss the warmth perspective, but I don't get the "undignified" part. Some girls hate tights, some boys are ok wearing them, tights are functional wear, not a sex specific one.

I think it is as the little boy can't express that preference his self.

OP posts:
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