To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

@BeeKeeping so OP, what did your breeder use with her collie??? i have absolutely no idea what a tofty is! what would you use, because the resultant puppies would no longer be what you call a tofty! like a cocker and a poodle makes a cockerpoo. next mating what do you use? a poodle will make a cockerpoopoo and a cocker will make a cocker cocker poo!! whatever! they are then mongrels!!

@allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld This

I think she knows that this is only the start of the journey- and she won't live forever, and everyone has to start somewhere

I took in an adult rescue pug this year. I would never, ever support someone to buy a pug puppy. I am a supporter of the movement to cross breed them selectively to undo the damage that has been done to the breed (under the auspices of the kennel club). TBH, I am not a massive fan of any kind of pedigree dog.

But I cant really see the case for more designer cross breeds unless it is for health reasons and think breeding should be much much more strictly regulated than it is now.

This isn’t a designer cross breed. It’s exactly the sort of programme you’ve referred to.

I just don't get these cross bred dogs.. labradoodles etc.. if it's not pure bred it's a mongrel.. if it's got more than one type of dog in it.

@Atethehalloweenchocs This is for health reasons! There's too few rough collies in the Uk to have enough diversity to have good health. Short of importing roughs at massive expense- this is the only way. They'll just dwindle away with increasingly terrible health otherwise. The rough collie is a beautiful family friendly breed and I think the tofty is one step better than that.

Yes, thank you @Era and @BeeKeeping I realize I was not clear in my post. I dont support cross breeding for the sake of making new breeds for novelty but for health reasons and to undo some of the damage pedigree breeders have done, I absolutely do. Sorry it was not better worded.

Every breed is a xbreed even pedigree. Its like humans
Anyway I'm a massive dog lover but bringing more dogs into the world I don't agree with, there are too many

Yanbu. It's hard work though.

Sorry, you sound revolting. And YABVU, as you obviously know absolutely nothing about dogs really. You’re pretending you are listening, but you know you’re going to do it anyway. Vile.

@Treehuggingmutherfunkin , it's not like humans.
Humans haven't been deliberately bred to have certain traits or physical characteristics.

thing is, if all breeding was licenced and all dogs were health tested/registered there woud be alot more healthy dogs.

even crossbreeds, health testing parents (and i dont just mean going the vets)! i mean hips/eyes whatever is relevent for the breed IMO is better than a backyard breeder just breeding their bitch

In this case, we have collies, we have rough collies - Border collies are when bred well, healthy hard breeds - whats wrong with those?

so no, dont breed your dog!

Has anyone that’s against this actually been to a dog shelter? I’ve been to 3 and not one had dogs suitable to be rehoused with a family

There are rescues that rehome to families but you may have to wait longer or travel further . If you want a puppy nothing stops you buying one but from a reputable breeder who has done all the necessary checks and is preferably not trying to create a new ‘designer’ crossbreed . Few people on this thread are opposed to breeding dogs .

This is such a complex issue, more than can be explained in one comment but ultimately, it’s irresponsible. You’re breeding a crossbreed. Cockapoos etc are crossbreeds, no matter what people call them.

Pedigree dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to get to breed standard by people that know what they’re doing. Obviously this has its own issues.

I saw a post on a vet group where basically, the only reason to breed is to improve the breed.

Please don’t do it, the dogs aren’t needed and there are plenty of healthy breeds out there that are being bred responsibly.

We wanted a whippet and tried to rescue one but weren’t allowed due to having a cat and a kid so we bought a puppy from a breeder. I do understand that it’s not always as simple as adopt don’t shop but don’t add to the problem by inventing crossbreeds and charging a fortune for a mongrel.

The original breeder doing that is doing it to improve the breed and clearly knows what to do.

Selling one of those puppies and encouraging the owner to breed from it basically makes all that work pointless as they have no control where they go with that journey.

I think this is improving the breed- or at least a viable alternative to a breed that has deteriorated beyond saving.

The original breeder would have been orchestrating the mix - so still overseeing the process and having control, just delegating the work.

That's the theory anyway- but I'm not determined enough to fight a wall of opposition, or put my dog at risk. So although I think she's doing a good thing, I don't think I'll be able to help.

I do think that as hobby breeders people massively underestimate the work involved.
Our last foster was an expensive breed who was signed over because the owner couldn't afford the costs of her pregnancy. They'd bet on using puppy money to pay for her care but she ended up with an out of hours expensive c-section that needed thousands before the pups were even here, so had to relinquish her care to a charity and not see the dog or her pups again.

Regardless of the money side of things there's also the human cost of things. My cousin has a very loved cross breed who they decided to breed. She had multiple attempts with a stud, and 2 lots of Artificial insemination. They were estimated 8 pups and found homes for 6 of them whilst in utero and really before the litter was confirmed

Their dog went into labour and had a rough time (lots of vet costs again!) And not only were they worried about their beloved dog being so in pain and unwell but the pups being unwell.

Turns out the ultrasounds are notoriously unreliable so there was never that amount of pups to begin with, so she only had 4. One had clearly died a long time ago, one was very unwell so euthanized at birth which left two.

One sadly failed to thrive. So after 2 weeks or so of extensively hand rearing it was euthanized. That left one healthy pup.

They remain completely devastated, they had to keep calling homes and saying that they no longer had a pup for them.

Sadly it's really heartbreakingly common for litters to have high numbers of losses especially for a first time mum

The emotional toll on them has been huge, as well as the months of their life dedicated to her care

The ethics of what OP is suggesting is another matter but I really get riled up with the "how could you EVER do ANYTHING other than GET A RESCUEEE" posse on their high horses.

On any given moment there are c. 6k children in the UK that need adopting, I assume therefore that the adopt don't shop posse have therefore 'adopted' this ethical stance in their entire lives and chosen to eschew pregnancy in favour of adoption?

No? Gosh. Why might that be? Could it be that adoption doesn't suit everyone?

Same for dogs.

The list of requirements for most rehoming dogs is frankly getting incredibly hard to achieve.

No first time owners
No kids under 15
Lots of outdoor space
Lots of experience needed.

And thats just the most common....

Surely any idiot can see the difference between rehoming a dog and adopting a human, wanting to pass on your genetics, carry the pregnancy, not feeling equipped to deal with the issues that come with adopting. Unless you actually think you can give birth to puppies @Vistada?

I wouldn't say everyone here has been saying adopt don't shop, but these circumstances are not right for that.

Many rescues will rehome in those circumstances, if you really cannot find anywhere that will rehome to you, I'd imagine it's because your circumstances aren't really right for a dog, but you don't care about that.

@Vistada

Hi, I'm an adopted adult. Can you not compare adopted children to dogs please? It's offensive on many levels and shows a complete lack of understanding of, or empathy with, the huge complexities of (human) adoption.

English is ‘plough on’
American is ‘plow on’ 😉

as a person that had my dog bred (had no choice it was in my purchase contract) My girl is a silver brindle standard poodle. 2 years ago when we still lived in canada, she gave birth to a litter of nine. Bred for her lines by our breeder (we had her standards for over 18 years at that point) We kept the first one delivered.. and they are living their best life now in Dominican Republic. A litter is VERY HARD WORK. you need a whelping pen.. you need goats milk when they start to get sick of nursing. You need to soak their food until atleast 7 weeks old. You need to watch each feeding session to make sure everyone got some (runt or smallest can be kicked out by other pups..esp in a litter more than 8 because.. nipples ya know..only 8) At week 4 or so..mama may not want to get in whelping pen..she is getting sick of a bunch of crazy monsters hanging of her teets. You need to be sure those pups still get fed. Even if it means getting up at 3 am . We put our whelping pen in our bedroom. It was an easy 3 weeks..then an kinda ok 3 weeks.. then a fucking nightmare when they woke and wanted fed and our girl was like..fuck you I am staying on bed with my mum and dad. Glad we have our lovely oliver.. from our lovely grace.. but fuck NO. and especially fuck NO to mixed breeds

I know the thread is old but I have followed the progress of the tofties & think it's a great idea as it's been done with considerable care.

Many purebred dog breeds are in trouble, & careful outcrossing is the best way to preseve them by increasing the genetic diversity

I'd rather see breeders doing this than throwing anything & everything at poodles to make money & create the unappealing, neurotic beige rugs that are everywhere now.