To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

I actually quite agree with you @ZetuianRose. I only have pets that are free to come and go as they please. I have 3 acres so lucky that they all get lots of freedom.

@BeeKeeping having just lost last year the most amazing dog, I get your sentiment. It was like someone had looked at our family and said here having this perfect dog.

I wish I had your land!!! (Though my poor DH would despair as I would then end up with multiple rescues!!!)

Your dog sounds lovely.

I'm struggling to see your reasoning for it tbh. Other than increasing the stock of a "nice" (although that's very subjective) breed. It's not clear why you've decided you want to be the saviour of the breed. Plus, breeding these "tofty sheepdogs" isn't going to help the population of rough collies... I've looked up tofty sheepdog on the kennel club. It's not a recognised breed, so all you've got is a fancy-worded mutt.

We considered breeding one of our bitches, but because of the number of puppies being sold has gone down, the number of dogs in rescue centres going up and the fact that I couldn't guarantee they'd go to caring comes made me reconsider and we got her spayed instead.

You dont necessarily get the best of both breeds. You could also get the worse. Genetics don't pick the best and go with it.

I know it's not a recognised breed. I don't think the kennel club has the authority on what's a good mix. Yes there are odds of getting the worst of both breeds but if you rigorously health test and only breed from the best examples you're likely to get good outcomes. There was a poster who explained that you need lots a new type of combination in order to be able to standardise the results- I think that's why this breeder is encouraging others to breed too- so that there's the opportunity to make a new crossbreed that is standardised in coat/temprement/health

More experienced posters than me have agreed that generally rough collies are not in a good way.

Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy
No family needs a puppy.

Yes there are odds of getting the worst of both breeds but if you rigorously health test and only breed from the best examples you're likely to get good outcomes.

What utter twaddle.

You cannot predict a dogs personality when you muck around with genetics/breeds. You could very well end up with a litter of puppies with the worst personality/temperament defects of both parents. As is the case with SO many poodle mixes.

As you said, it will take generations for the personality to be steady and reliable from litter to litter. What will you and the other bloody idiots do in the mean time? Kill the dogs with personality defects that have only been born due to your incompetence/arrogance?

There is literally nothing wrong with rough collies. Stop trying to justify your desire to earn yourself a quick buck.

I would also add that I'd be suspicious of any breeder who advised you to leave your dog unspayed because you MIGHT want to breed her someday. Unspayed dogs are at much higher risk than spayed dogs for certain cancers, and pyometra is a real risk (I think it's estimated that 25% of unspayed dogs will develop pyo.) It's a horrible way for a dog to die. Unsoayed dogs also tend to run away when in heat, even if beautifully trained the rest of the time, which can lead to death by cars or predators. Leaving a dog unspayed exposes her to a lot of avoidable risk; it really shouldn't be done just on case just because maybe someday the owner might want puppies.

I have had collies for years and due to doing research before I get a puppy I have never had a collie with any of the diseases that you mention.

There is no need to "make" a new breed just do your research and only consider dogs from health tested adults.

I have seen your threads on the Tofties in the dog house section are you trying to promote this crossbreed?

Did you breeder say to keep her unspayed because the breeder might take her back and supervise a whelping?

I wouldn’t.

I think your motivation is odd as well. To have more toftys in the world? We don’t need any more dogs. Rescue is best, we have a young baby and got a rescue dog.

My husbands brother has just had a litter of visla puppies and his reason for it… “cuz we can make like £10k”…

Sorry if this has been already raised but can you guarantee homes for the rest of the litter? Is there a market for this type of puppy? If not, then no, I would not breed, as there are already more dogs out there than there are good homes. Shelters are overrun and even though I would get turned down by a lot of rescues as I already have a lot of animals at home (we live on a smallholding) I get offered a dog through word of mouth every couple of months. That has led to me now owning four and I really cannot take anymore. What will you do if a buyer changes their mind and no longer wants the puppy? A decent breeder would offer to have the animal back but will you honestly be able to do this?

I own a very rare breed of dog and have only bought two puppies from a responsible breeder who has a waiting list of homes and takes non-refundable deposits so people really think about buying a puppy. She has been known to hand those deposits back if she gets a bad feeling about the homes! Likewise, I know a pony breeder whose foals are spoken for while in utero and you will wait a couple of years to own one of her ponies. Both breeds are well established from breeders who can predict temprement, confirmation and even height as they have established bloodlines they have bred from for generations. I am not a fan of new crossbreeds, even the man who first bred the labradoodle says he regrets it. If I am going to take my chances on temprement, I will go to a shelter and give a homeless dog a chance first than pay a backyard breeder.

The risks and heartbreak involved in breeding cannot be underestimated - if you are a decent person who loves their animals, it can be daunting. My daughter is a vet nurse and they have one regular client called 'the puppy muncher'. I won't turn your stomach with her stories! It is wonderful when it all goes right but devastating when it goes wrong and very, very expensive. I would be wary of any breeder pushing you to get into breeding as well, as it comes across as just a way of making their own stock more popular and sellable. A good breeder who breeds truly lovely animals doesn't need the free advertising. It sounds flattering but you could be talked into biting off more than you can chew.

I am sorry to sound so negative, OP, I know what it is like when you have a wonderful animal and you want another just the same. We considered breeding one of our ponies as we wanted a foal from her but the risk to her was too high for us to consider it.

I also know of this breeder (wicani). She is a very well known and very long established breeder of rough collies and is trying to remove genetic defects from the breed and get back to rough collies as they were 100ish years ago (like lassie) rather than the fluffy showdogs susceptible to eye problems and kidney problems they now have become. Many, many of the purebred kennel club rough collies people have nowadays will have come from the wincani lines. Whilst these dogs have been named a "Yorkshire Tofty" simply to distinguish them from the purebred dogs, the dogs are predominantly rough collie (just with some welsh sheepdog cross breeding to help with the genetic work). The dogs are extensively tested to ensure they are clear of the problems plaguing rough collies. They are sold at low value since the aim is to improve the breed, not to make money. A purebred KC rough collie will go for circa £2k. These dogs are being sold for around £800 to cover the extensive genetic testing, but in every litter most of them are kept by the breeder. I think only three were sold from the most recent litter.

We have always had rough collies. I currently have a small wicantoft mongrel sitting on my toes. When she is grown she will look almost identical to lassie from the old movies rather than looking like the big lion mane "show" rough collies that have come to dominate the breed over recent years.

That said, we would not breed from ours. We are not experienced. She will have two seasons as recommended by our vet and then she will be spayed.

"I know it's not a recognised breed. I don't think the kennel club has the authority on what's a good mix. Yes there are odds of getting the worst of both breeds but if you rigorously health test and only breed from the best examples you're likely to get good outcomes."

@BeeKeeping I'm not sure you've quite understood genetics. Even within the best examples there will be 'good' and 'bad' traits. Also, what is good and bad depends on the purpose for the dog. A very people orientated dog is going to make a quite terrible guard dog.

In any breeding of dogs, there will be a mixture of genetics. For example, my Labrador puppy is the offspring of a Crufts Show Champion (100% show lines) Labrador and a 50/50 working/show Labrador. In theory, our puppy should be 75% show, 25% working. But you can tell from her body shape, her head shape, and her drive when we're training her, that she has a lot of working genes in her. She does have the 'off switch' of the show lines, which is helpful, but she will train until she drops and happily did a 4 hour training workshop last week.

You just can't predict what you will get. Obviously, if you have screened for genetic diseases, you can exclude those, but temperament, etc., is a lottery.

Please do not contribute to the chaos that man has created in the dog world.

If this is true, then that does change my post slightly. The demands of the show ring have warped so many dog breeds over the last 50 years and I am all for breeding out genetic ill health and getting these dogs back to looking the way they did when they were working dogs and needed to be fit and healthy. However, I would still do a lot of research into demand, be prepared to lose money and brace myself for heartbreak so those parts of my post still stand!

She probably would if I asked but I wouldn't want this. She's offered to be a mentor if I wanted to breed but there's no pressure to do so

😂😂 it’s about £800 for a dog to have a csection, not £12,000 you fool

Yes that's the one- didn't want to be too outing but I seem to have dug myself into a hole of angry warriors!

It's really interesting that when you google Tofty sheepdog 2 of the results on the very first page are both from Mumsnet.

A Good breeder wouldn't encourage someone with no experience to breed either.

Your breeder is talking out her arse for a start. But yes, YABU too.

As far as I am aware the "rough collie" was originally actually created from a cross between a Welsh collie and another breed or breeds. If you look at photos of the breed from early in the 20th century they are very unlike the fluffy dogs we recognise as roughs now. What this breeder is trying to do is get the breed back to close to how it was originally but also to widen the gene pool and try and improve the health of the breed.

Are you this rude in real life? 🤷‍♀️

You clearly have absolutely no idea what an emergency only vet costs at 4am. Perhaps you can get it cheaper elsewhere in the country (and indeed in non emergency cases) but you are incorrect.