To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

I don’t know much about dogs, or breeding them. But I do know about cats. My advice to you, would be to spend a minimum of 6 months volunteering in an animal centre, a dog one. See how rehoming works, see how many are rescued- the why and the how. Get to know the dogs in there and then see how you feel. If nothing else, you’ll learn a lot more about puppies and pregnant dogs, maybe even the birthing itself.

This!

I think the original breeder has a good plan. But for all of the many responses received I shall probably just leave her to it.

Yep I am bloody ‘militant’ about this topic.

People have no idea the horror that is being inflicted by dog breeders. And by people who want puppies of a ‘certain’ breed.

Too much effort and heartache. The mess, the responsibility. Don't worry about breed dogs and kennel clubs and whatnot. Healthy animals aren't heavily bred. I would say do not do it.

There have been crossbreds bred for working purposes for centuries - lurchers for example, a whippet x bedlington produces a pretty reliable type, collie to greyhound, collie x greyhound back to greyhound... and all the other interesting mixes, have produced reliable and reasonably predictable types for a long time now.

But trying to create a new breed is another matter.

I would look at previous attempts and see how they went - historically, inventors of new breeds were one man operations, who retained control over all their stock and culled hard (yes the way you think I mean that) so they achieved their goal reasonably (ie, in their lifetime) quickly.

That just isn't possible these days, breed creators today do not have oodles of cash and a country pile to use, they can't and shouldn't keep 10s of dogs in kennels whilst they work out what breeds true and what doesn't.

so other people get involved and that is where it goes tits up - people disagree, people go off at a tangent, goals shift and crucially... all the 'not quite right' puppies, what happens to them?

Look at:

Rodinglea Scruffies (Beardie mixes)
Utonagan/Northern Inuit/Tamaskan - a shit show and dogs riddled with cancer dying very young.
King Shepherds
Panda Shepherds
Plummer Terriers (a more successful example but theres very few around now)
Silken Windhounds (very very few of these around)
Cockerpoos (so massively variable and are not the easy pet dogs people think they are on the whole)
Labradoodles (ditto)
Australian Cobber Dogs (ditto)

Just a few examples off the top of my head where people have tried, some with reasonable intentions, to create a breed and it isn't the success they had hoped for in a variety of ways.

IS there really a demand for a Tofty Sheepdog?

Who is this demand coming from? Surely those people would already own something like a Rough Collie or close to that.

What does the Tofty Sheepdog have that another pastoral breed does not?

To breed, you need people demanding that breed, you need a list of definite puppy buyers before you even think about putting bitch to dog.

This is a vanity project for the inventor of the breed, I am not saying it is impossible to produce some nice pet dogs - it isn't, if the temperament and health of the parents and grandparents is good, if you vet owners properly, if you/the creator of the breed can absolutely supply lifetime back up for these puppies should their new owners situations change... The world DOES in fact need steady, sensible, bombproof pet dogs.

But to create those, I don't think I'd start with Rough Collies any more than I'd start with mixing cockers and poodles!

You want to breed mongrels for profit in other words.

Do people not realise what will happen if responsible breeders stop breeding? These so called evil breeders that extensively (and expensively) health test, look at inbreeding coefficients, register, and select the best possible dogs to enhance the breed and improve their genetics. All that will be left are back yard breeders who don't care, don't consider any of these factors and produce unhealthy puppies for money only. In 20 to 50 years time the rescues will still be overflowing but dogs overall will be full of issues and genetic diseases and not make it past the age of 8.

You can breed for health and you can breed for a good temperament and this should be encouraged responsibly. Registered studs only should be allowed to breed puppies. There is a place in the world for people to adopt from rescues but also for responsible dog breeders

Lots of interesting information thank you. I will look into this.

I'm not sure there is a market for the tofty, and it's probably not a gamble I'm willing to take. I hope that the original breeder does achieve her aims and that there are more of this cross in the world

I totally agree with you

Again, these breeders aren't going anywhere are they? Do we need more people, like OP, breeding their pet dog? No we don't.

Leaving aside the potential issue of dead and dying puppies (which can and does happen).

You should only ever breed puppies to improve the breed. That means extensive genetic testing and finding a good (usually expensive) stud.

Then there are financial issues. Your breed wont likely be profitable. People don’t pay £££ for cross breeds.

You’d need all the right equipment including a good quality whelping box (The wrong one could mean the puppies are crushed to death).

And if mum needed a C section, that would be £8,000 to £12,000 gone, and any profit you should make.

It honestly doesn’t sound like the right thing to do in your case.

Couldn't agree more. The good knowledgeable breeders (which undoubtedly includes the original breeder referred to here) are the ones we want to encourage, whilst stamping on the idiots.

I wholeheartedly do not agree with this. Have you worked in welfare? Yes, it's amazing if you are able to adopt. BUT, adopted dogs often come with behavioural problems the average person simply does not have the knowledge or experience to resolve. Many rescues do not have the staff resources available nationwide to actually work with you locally. It's a gamble.

And if mum needed a C section, that would be £8,000 to £12,000

£2k actually. And I discovered after the event that you can buy whelping insurance. I still strongly advise anyone not to do it.

There are plenty of rough collie breeders out there who have decades of experience and could have sidelined their bloodline like this. You have no experience and the breeder of your bitch sounds inexperienced and immoral. The UK does not need any more puppies.

This.

Totally agree .

You mention the desire to make your type of dog a "thing". I find it difficult to understand why you think that it will be beneficial to you to do so in any way. What would change?
Are you the type of person who gets really "into" something and wants to share it with others? Are you missing that aspect of not having a common breed and not being part of a specific group?
Do you think you would breed your dog had they been a different breed or cross breed?
Is it that you really enjoyed your dog and found her really cute when little and want to relive this moment or let your children experience this side of nature?

I think that answering the reasons why you want to do it might help you.
This will be controversial but I personally think that you should only really to do it if you are prepared to keep the dogs if you don't find owners and actually I think you should also morally take them back again if things don't go well in the new homes. Choosing to create new life is even more of a responsibility than choosing to care for a life already made in my opinion. Nobody can abandon a dog who isn't born, so the possibility of abandoning a pet only comes about when people let or choose for their dogs to get pregnant.

It must be a flipping bargain where you live then! My breeder friend paid £8k for her out of hours c section at an emergency only vet and she said it could have run much higher.

No way would I breed dogs now.

Maybe the difference is that it was our regular vet @Babypuppyshark. It was an emergency at 8pm.

Having been involved with the breed for decades, I can assure you there are plenty of Rough Collie breeders out there who don't look far beyond a pretty head. There are huge variations between size, coat levels, energy levels, etc.

I love the breed, but it undoubtedly has its health issues and to some degree temperament ones, too. For those who have said the breed is not rare, it is not at vulnerable breed registration levels yet, but it's certainly heading that way fairly rapidly.

The subject breeder went on a campaign to improve this and certainly wasn't thanked for her efforts by a lot of the breeders. She may not (is not!) be everybody's cup of tea, but she is a very clever woman who set out on a mission to improve the issues she saw.

This.

Literally no other posts are needed after this one.

Those are interesting questions.

I suppose I did have a romantic view of having puppies and hadn't considered the consequences on a difficult birth or worse outcome. If I did consider it whelping insurance would be a must.

I just wanted another clone of my dog and thought breeding her might be the best way to do this. Having thought about it more thoroughly going back to my original breeder to buy another would be a better plan.

YABU, OP. Your poor pet.

YABU. But not you personally, I just don’t agree with breeding animals. There’s so many already out there, we don’t need more.

I’m actually these days verging on the side of we shouldn’t even have pets. Most of them are miserable - small animals in cages, lots of them scared of humans. Fish in bowls. Birds ignored etc.

While dogs are happy in human company, most of them don’t truly get the lives they really need, even if they’re loved.

But that’s just my feelings towards it all.