Excluding a friend?

[StephPlum]

In the last few years my friendship group has settled into a nice little group of 5.
We have a WhatsApp that's busy with chat and support and we often get together with or without families. Husbands all get along too.
Before Xmas friend 1 told friend 2 that she's moving her child to a new school because of bullying that friend 2's child was involved in. Friend 1 insisted she didn't want to fall out, but friend 2 was upset, said it was all liesbso they had words and friend 1 left the WhatsApp.
Friend 1 has kept in touch with everyone except friend 2. When sending invites to stuff friend 1 includes everyone (Inc. Friend 2, who won't join in).
Friend 2 won't join anything that friend 1 is involved in. So we've had a few get together with just friend 2.
Friend 1 found out about this and is really upset. She thinks they should both be included in everything, and that we are actually preventing a reconciliation by enabling friend 2 to just leave her out. She left the WhatsApp group herself but is now feeling excluded.
If we didn't do anything with friend 2 separately she wouldn't see any of us.
Aibu to leave out friend 1 sometimes?

This with bells on.

@StephPlum - Your other friends are trying to avoid discussing the problem and remain totally neutral - and you are NOT stuck in the middle of F1 and F2 - you have made a choice to do so and as a result you are in danger of losing both F1 and F2. Your other 2 friends have the right idea in refusing to discuss anything about it.

In what way do you think F1 'could have handled things better'? I don't understand, because from what you have said F1 dealt with it in a very adult and sensible matter and F2 is turning it into a big drama/behaving like a child/manipulative etc. etc.

You seem to prefer F2 - and that's fine if that's what you want to do, but as others have said, she may well turn on you in the future. But if you want us to say that it's ok and that F1 should be excluded, the vast majority on here are saying that is NOT ok and we can understand how hurt and upset F1 is (whether she shows it or not).

Your question was AIBU to leave out F1 sometimes - and the answer is YABVVU

Friend 1 had mentioned issues on and off over the last couple of years. Both in the context of worrying about her child (which was certainly her priority) and then also worrying about how to navigate that with f2. I only got a sense that she was very concerned in the weeks leading up to her removing dc from the school. I do think it was a last resort for her. Her younger dc is still at school.
F2 has been more outspoken about the situation. She is quite hurt that we see f1 at all, but feels especially pushed out when we organise group things. She knows f1 will attend so she won't- hence why we've left out f1 from a few group things so that f2 can join in

@Furore Out of curiosity, did friend1 talk about the bullying prior to moving her child to a different school?
The OP says the school was involved and spoke with the bully. It's not an 'over reaction' to move your child when their life is being made a misery by bullying. In fact the mere fact that she moved her in year 6 is a whooping huge indication that the bullying was really really bad. The OP has described the two and F1 has been described as quiet and calm. Not melodramatic. Not someone likely to make some huge dramatic action like moving schools in year 6 for no reason. F2 has been described as loud and the Queen B.

No idea why you think what you think given these bits of info.

I'm with @Josette77; you need a name change, @StephPlum .

Stephanie Plum would never, ever behave this badly to a friend. Maybe Joyce Barnhardt would be more your style.

Friend 1 has been royally shat on by the lot of you. She mentioned repeatedly that her child was being bullied, the school got involved to intervene with F2's bully, and in the end the only solution was to move a child in Year 6 with SATs looming, to a different school.

She's tried to rise above it, she invites everyone to social occasions despite Queen Biatch throwing her toys out of the pram, and then she sees the rest of you socialising without her?

You all owe Friend 1 a sincere apology, and to offer whatever support she and her child need. There is no "neutral" in this situation.

Honestly if F2 doesn’t want to come to things because F1 is there, that’s her problem. You’re pandering to a bully.

How many times have you all left F1 out of things because F2 refuses to see her? Honestly this is childish, mean and cowardly, letting one friend dictate the terms of the relationships within the group. You all need to be brave and tell them they both get invited and they deal with the consequences of their own decision as to whether to attend or not. Do you really want to be a person who would deliberately exclude a friend from events over and over because it makes life easier for someone else?

You think friend 1 should have kept quiet about her child being bullied about friend 2's child? Why?

So you're leaving friend 1 out to appease friend 2? That's just unkind. You're allowing friend 2 to manipulate the situation so that it suits her.

Wait - issues with bullying went on for 2 YEARS?

It is mindblowing how poor a friend you have been to F1.

You’ve minimised, constantly, the bullying F2’s child metered out to her child for over two years, culminating in her removing her child from the school! People do not cause that much upheaval over nothing. Wise up.

You’ve lapped up the controlling, self-indulgent tantrums of F2, including her wishes that you stop seeing F1. She is playing the victim and so in awe of this woman are you, that you’re not only indulging it, you’re defending it.

You actually exclude F1 on F2’s say-so, because even though F1 is gracious enough to attend an event where F2 is, F2 refuses.

You sound like a total sycophant and I really think, if this is real, that you should be ashamed. And grow up.

Friend 2's child bullied Friend 1's child.

Friend 2 showed no remorse and positioned Friend 1 as being in the wrong for telling everyone that her child had been bullied and she was having to sort out a change of schools. Did it not occur to Friends 3, 4 and 5 at that point to reach out to Friend 1 privately and ask if she was OK?

Friends 3, 4 and 5 just want to socialise. That is their only aim. It's not convenient to them when Friends 1 or 2 are upset. They are looking for evidence Friend 1 and/or her child made stuff up, so they brush this all under the carpet for an easy life. That's their response: not to sympathise, but to avoid/ignore.

Friend 1 has other friends. Thankfully. Because Friends 2, 3, 4 and 5 are not friends to her. You're all treating her poorly.

Friend 2 doesn't care if her actions hurt other people. The correct response is, 'I'm really sorry, I can't explain why my child did that. I'm going to handle this, and I hope you know I do not think any of this behaviour is acceptable. I understand if you need me to step back from the group for a while, but I really don't want us to permanently fall out over our children, as your friendship means the world to me.'

The correct response is not 'OMG, ur so nasty, y r u telling ppl that my child is bully?? UR a bully!'

The fact that Friends 3, 4 and 5 have stood back does not mean they are neutral. It means they have sided with Friend 2 and think it's perfectly acceptable to treat your so-called friends like shit.

At some point, either Friend 3, 4 or 5 will have something go wrong for them, and will wonder why the rest of the group is not supporting them. Then they'll remember this.

The group is dead. You all killed it.

I'd leave the group because you make poor decisions together, and the other people are not making you your best self. Reflect on how you handled all of this, learn from it, and make new friends. People who support you, who you support, people who make you want to be accountable. This group is toxic and honestly, you'd all be better for making new, different connections.

Bullies are quite capable of being charming when they want to be. They are charming round people that either will call them out or they want to keep on their side.

But the fact that they can turn it off shows that they can help it and it's a deliberate decision on their part which, to me, makes it far worse.
If they were just struggling then they'd react the same to others.

It's part of why being bullied feels so awful. You thought the person bullying you was nice, and you can't understand what's happened. It erodes your self-confidence, your judgement and it trashes your mental health.

When nasty people are nasty, you can make allowances for it. When nice people are nasty, you second-guess yourself and you wonder if you're the problem somehow.

The most effective bullies are the ones with special skills in gaslighting and charm. They leave you for dead and take all your friends.

Totally.
And when you speak up others say that you must have misunderstood them, or they probably didn't mean it because they're so nice.
And even if they see something they discount it and turn it round to say that you're the problem.

The most effective bullies are the ones with special skills in gaslighting and charm. They leave you for dead and take all your friends.

100% agree with this. It's almost like friend 1 is being bullied by proxy by the rest of you. I'm sure you don't see it like this and I do appreciate that you perhaps feel 'caught in the middle' a bit. However, you have to look at the whole situation and surely you can see that friend 2, and the rest of you, are being unfair to friend 1.

All of these comments!

Skilled bullies will be lovely to others apart from their target deliberately so that the “oh X can’t be a bully, he/ she is so lovely” narrative takes hold.

Friend 2 being the “most outgoing” clearly raises alarm bells too.

Your group friendship won't survive this

Better to socialise with people separately for a while, and see how things turn out

Not sure it was wise to post here. Your story is quite identifiable / easily recognised by the parties involved

Friend 2 has said she wants nothing to do with friend 1 ever again. She's been holding firm to that since the beginning and has repeated the same to everyone in our wider circle.

F2 won't be happy until the entire group has turned their back on F1 - ironic because that would be tantamount to bullying! F2 is used to being bullish until the rest of the group falls in behind her and gives her her own way. You need to stand firm this time and, if anyone miraculously grows a pair and isn't too afraid to stand up to her, tell her it's all a bit childish.

Friend 1 had been less fixed. Her view at the start was that she hoped to reconcile, though she wouldn't make any apologies. After a few weeks her stance was that they are adults and she'd be happy it they could just exchange niceties whenever they come across each other.

Because Friend 1 is an adult. No foot stamping there, even though she is the injured party.

Your group really need to step back and see F2's behaviour for what it is. She may be 'fun and organised' but she's so manipulative and demanding.

The bullying is being completely side swiped and it's really not fair.

I hope Friend 1 focuses on spending time with her actual friends. None of you are friends to her.

Friend 2 is a manipulative bully.

The rest of you are participating in Friend 2’s bullying.

It’s no surprise that Friend 1 had other friends and Friend 2 does not. Remember your behaviour when Friend 2 turns on you too. Because she will.

I initially replied YANBU but I think I am changing my mind, in part. Do you always do everything as a group or do you meet up individually too? All my good friends, I would sometimes meet one or one for a coffee or walk to really catch up in a way that doesn't quite happen in a group. I think that YABU to have group get togethers that exclude friend 1 as as far as I can see she has done nothing wrong and is more than happy include friend 2. But I would meet up with friend 2 individually to maintain that friendship and pave the way for her to hopefully join in with the group again eventually

I agree, friend 2 is the one giving the ultimatum and trying to get friend 1 ostracised, even though friend 1 is the injured party and your group is 'staying neutral' by taking friend 2's side.

So friend 1 not only has to move her child in an important school year, but they also lose their mum friendship group.

You need to be a better friend to friend 1. Are you afraid friend 2 will cut you out of the group too?

Not always as a group, sometimes 1:1 or smaller groups. Tends to depend who is around when or what else is happening in life, what activities we are doing.
I would say most often is f2 with smaller groups but f2 is a sahp.
Our WhatsApp group is the main link really, that's constant chatter every day. We go monthly for an evening out and get together with all the families a few times a year.

I believe I may have the solution: SUDDEN DEATH PLAY-OFF

Invite everyone (including the men) round to yours for Debate Night. With snacks. Undertake to implement the winning motion.

Motion 1(proposal): this House believes that Friend 1 should be permanently excluded from the House.

Motion 2(counterproposal): this House believes that nobody should be excluded from the House: disputes between members should be left at the door.

If Motion 1 sounds bad, that's because it is. F2 wants you all to drop F1 and will whinge relentlessly until you do.

We've all tried telling you this in different ways, but you're obviously not listening.

@StephPlum
I think you’re not listening because deep down, you know that F2 is in the wrong. You may not have realised initially, but slowly over time you have. And that you have treated F1 badly. That’s hard to admit to yourself and even harder to put right.

You could continue as you are, dig yourself in even deeper and continue to be an active part of this bullying, Or not, ultimately it’s up to you. It’s not up to your friends, it’s up to you to decide what you and your conscience can live with.