Excluding a friend?

[StephPlum]

In the last few years my friendship group has settled into a nice little group of 5.
We have a WhatsApp that's busy with chat and support and we often get together with or without families. Husbands all get along too.
Before Xmas friend 1 told friend 2 that she's moving her child to a new school because of bullying that friend 2's child was involved in. Friend 1 insisted she didn't want to fall out, but friend 2 was upset, said it was all liesbso they had words and friend 1 left the WhatsApp.
Friend 1 has kept in touch with everyone except friend 2. When sending invites to stuff friend 1 includes everyone (Inc. Friend 2, who won't join in).
Friend 2 won't join anything that friend 1 is involved in. So we've had a few get together with just friend 2.
Friend 1 found out about this and is really upset. She thinks they should both be included in everything, and that we are actually preventing a reconciliation by enabling friend 2 to just leave her out. She left the WhatsApp group herself but is now feeling excluded.
If we didn't do anything with friend 2 separately she wouldn't see any of us.
Aibu to leave out friend 1 sometimes?

She's a Queen Bee and likes to Wendy people.

Have seen this type person many times. They really don't change, thrive on drama, get worse as they get older (hormones). I now distance myself from this sort of person (1 used to be my best friend) as there's so much drama involved with them. Worse than EE/Corrie!

Then you’re not friends at all. How come you wouldn’t discuss with a close friend of yours if their child was bullying your child?? The example you’re giving your child there is that you won’t inconvenience yourself in your fine social scene when they’re in distress and that’s how they should behave and what they should tolerate.

She has a been a lovely friend to me. She's great fun to be around and always there if I need help or a chat. She definitely the most outgoing of us all.
Friend 1 has been always been an amazing friend too.

Others are doing there best to stay neutral. Accepting all rhe invites and trying to avoid any chat about with either of them about the other.
I've talked to them both about the situation and tried to advocate for the other but f2 always feels I'm taking f1s side when I do so.

Was friend 2 a lovely friend to friend 1 before this started?
Outgoing and fun to be with does not automatically equate to being a wonderful person. Is she loyal, trustworthy, reliable, honest, caring etc?

Yes I think she was. They spent more time together than the rest of us as their children seemed closer and their work hours allowed for it

@StephPlum however you’re now seeing the ugly side to her and defending her because she’s great fun to be around. You need to call her out and stop bloody defending her. What I’ve noticed here is you’re not stuck in the middle. You have clearly taken sides your whole group have. Add F1 back to the WhatsApp group and plan your outings in that group.

Friend 2 needs to get over herself.

From your other post it sounds as if it's worse for them both but more for Friend 2 because they were so close and spent so much time together. I'm going to suggest maybe a random trip or something (if DC allow!) and preferably not involving alcohol or excessive caffeine where both friends if poss can be encouraged to talk/spend time safely in other's company? Or am I expecting too much?!

Yes do this.

She may be lovely but sounds like a bit of a bully/control freak too.

Sounds very much like my ex best friend almost to a T!

But things changed when there was a drama... and she's got worse as she's got older, she now owns a beauty salon where she is the receptionist... I've been told by my nail tech that this friend is well known now in the area for being volatile, rude etc... And my nail tech though she goes there for sun beds etc would never work for her, though my ex-bestie would very much like her to do so!

And yet, now she's declared she wants nothing to do with friend 1. Some "lovely" friend

Only when things were going well and when it suited her.

You're going to be next for trying to get them to reconcile, because she's already accusing you of taking friend 1's side, but would that really be a loss?

She is quite controlling, as in she likes things her way. But I do think she recognises that in herself and tends to be the group planner/ organiser in order to manage that- which I think we've always been happy with I think. I'm maybe not making that sound great, I don't mean she's a foot stomper just that she is an organiser, she finds it harder to follow.
She's always friendly and chatty to everyone but is quite particular about whose in her close circle.

So she is a bit of a Queen Bee/Wendy type. A lot of group planners/organisers are.

Being particular about those in her close circle is all well and good when it works well but not in your scenario you've posted about here.

I've just read through all of your responses OP.

There is no surprise that F1 wanted to handle this without the involvement of the other mum if at all possible.

I have been F1 and dealt with an F2. I did the opposite to F1 and asked to sit and talk about with when it first started. My F2's response was that her child couldn't possibly be a bully and reeled off lots of instances where the child had been praised for being a kind person. F2's child is the type that sucks up to all the adults around her and is slyly horrible to the other children.. So, when this was starting and I wasn't aware, my daughter had a sleepover with this child. I was out for the evening, and my daughter didn't have a phone but did have her ipad and messaged me that she wanted to come home because this kid was being vile. I didn't see it until the morning and rushed up. My F2 was incredulous and said they'd had a great time and actually said that my child was manipulating me because she didn't want me to go out.

When I got my daughter on my own I asked what had happened, and she said it was like a switch. When her mum was there she was all sweetness and light and solicitous, and as soon as the adults left, she was bossy and controlling and telling my daughter she had to do what she said, as it was her house. Made her do lots of things she was uncomfortable with.

When it all blew up, F2 spent hours talking to our mutual friends about how upset she was. About how her child had always been so kind to mine, and how much she had done for me too. That she couldn't believe we would make up these stories and how awful we were. Does this sound familiar?

Anyway, F2's daughter has since fallen out with multiple other kids in secondary and really struggles with friendships. She's bossy and controlling and other kids don't like that. F2 has also fallen out with other mums.

No-one likes to hear that their child is a bully or being mean. But the difference is in the parents reaction. If something told me something like that about my child (and they have) my response is "I'm so sorry, I'll talk to them and find out what happened." I do not believe that my children are angels who can do no wrong. All of us can and have behaved badly at different times. It doesn't necessarily make us bad people, what affects that is the reaction around you. If you are constantly telling your child they are magnificent and the best person in the world and it's other people in the wrong then it is doing them no favours. I suspect this is the case with your F2.

It's interesting that your F2 is also very involved with the school, my F2 was the head of the PFA. It's definitely a certain type of parent! (I say that, having also been involved with the PFA).

I understand you wanting to stay friends with both of them. However, do ask yourself, how would you feel if it happened to your child. How would you want mutual friends to react.

We all think that the bonds made at the school gate are strong ones, and we see facebook posts of people going off on holiday together long after their kids have grown up. But that's the select few. The reality is that they are often fragile and ephemeral friendships, that don't stand the test of challenges like this.

It's funny that you don't seem to realise every further post you add makes Friend 2 sound worse and worse. What she wants is for you all to side with her and cut contact with Friend 1 - she's annoyed with you all for not doing what she wants so now she is issuing veiled threats and ultimatums to bring you all back in line.

Just so we're clear, what 'being neutral' actually looks like in this situation is for everyone to be invited to everything and people making their own minds up about whether to attend or not.

@StephPlum
I can’t believe you feel stuck in the middle. You’re essentially saying to F1, I don’t believe you, I side with your abuser.

F2 sounds really really horrible.

And very manipulative.

Tbh, I think F1 deserves far better friends.

Going against the grain here, I don’t think you should start inviting F1 to events. You’ve shown that you are a terrible friend to her, and although it will be painful for her, I think in the long run she will be better off for it.

Your in a very difficult situation but friend 1 has every reason to be upset because her child has suffered a lot and she lost her friends. I agree with an earlier comment though friend 2 may turn on you at some point of she is looking for a scapegoat. She has already proven herself to be manipulative, controlling and deceptive so think very wisely about getting to involved with her. Her next target might be you and her child's next target might be yours.

It's curious that F1 has friends outside of the group, while F2 doesn't. F2 is the louder, extroverted, chatty organiser type so surely she should be batting away friends. Don't you think that's odd OP?

There's an obvious reason F2 has no one else. She's horrid.

I'm glad F1 has other friends. I hope they're better humans. Who needs blind sheep for friends.

Is this group of 5 centred around the kids, or have you all become friends independently?

If the first - you're all 'mums of y6s at St Custard's' - I'd just let F2 chunter on, meet her 1-1 maybe, & carry on inviting F1 to everything group related (re-add her to the WA group).

Because in 6 months time, these kids will be forming entirely different y7 friendships & you'll all drift apart as a group anyway.

Not worth getting involved in drama - you don't know if in a year's time your dc with be bfff with F1's dc/F2's dc/both & they're all inseparable/never speaks to either...

If your friendships are separate from the dc, I think I'd sit F2 down & say she's being ridiculous, & the group is continuing as before - F1 is invited, she's invited, & if she doesn't want to join in, fine, but no one is prepared to exclude F1.

Get F3 & F4 onside first so you're all singing from the same sheet though!

Similar situation with a couple of women I met through a larger group. F2 dominated the group, had experienced some difficult things in her life, eg. been widowed young and used it to excuse any bad behaviour (seriously, you would be talking, she would cut right over you and then tell you it was because she was a widow if you asked her what she was doing). I became close to one of the other group members who I had a lot in common with. Unbeknown to me, F2 was telling people that this other woman was 'her friend' not mine. She went out of her way to drive a wedge between us, and my other friend tried to stay neutral - even telling me it was 50/50 between us when there were problems. It really spoiled our relationship and we are not as close as we used to be. Interestingly, F2 was pretty much dropped by the rest of the group when this was all going on, because they could see how manipulative and nasty she was. OP, by assigning any blame to F1, you are massively in the wrong. Stop telling her to fix things and tell F2 to stop being so horrible.

I thought this too. Agree with others, invite both, they can accept or decline. The fact Friend 2 won't now partake in anything Friend 1 organises isn't your problem. And, to be honest, it's curious that Friend 2 has the issue when it's her child that's the bully. If anything, I'd prioritise whether Friend 1 can attend over Friend 2.

I agree with the above.

OP, We don't know these people so we are making judgements based on a few things you have told us.

I think for friend1 to move their child to a different school in year 6 is a severe over reaction, over an issue of non inclusion in group playground activities. Having taken such a severe step, to then say to friend2 that she hopes the childrens' relationship, outside of school, will be enhanced, is just disingenuous! Who on earth would think that. Its just like rubbing salt in a wound. How you can expect friend2, to ignore the accusation that her child is such an extreme bully that friend1 has had to change her sons school and still continue to be friends is just nonsensical, whether it is true or not.

I also think it is strange that friend1 would want to be in a friend ship group with friend2 when her child was so badly being bullied by friend2's son, that she was having to change his school.

I think that some friendships are just not meant to last.

Whilst friend1 has said, all she is is expecting from friend2 is a cordial and polite relationship, this is not a true friendship. I know there are 5 of you, but not all of you are going to be available to meet up, so there could be just 3 of you say, which would be very uncomfortable for friend1 and friend2 socially.

Friend2, is not saying you can't see friend 1.

Out of curiosity, did friend1 talk about the bullying prior to moving her child to a different school?

Who told you about the bullying? Friend1 or friend2. Has friend1 not told you how bad it was, in order to be diplomatic?

I would say, there's no coming back from this. See friend2 and friend1 but not together. The group is too small and it is too awkward for the friendship group to continue as a fivesome.