What does your network think about trans people?

[deeter]

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

Telling a woman that she should just walk away from therapy that is retraumatisinf her because of a male person’s presence is reprehensible.

I am so sorry that you were told this.

This...

Sorry. Responded to wrong post so have deleted and reposted.

@StolenCookie said it upthread.

Wouldn't walking away be terribly transphobic though? Is cookies really advising others to carry out such a terrible act of literal violence?

More to the point would cookies follow their own advice?

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
You come onto a 800+ post thread to say that? Thanks for your input.

I appreciate everyone who hasn't given up, and I include @StolenCookie in that. I don't know enough about this to find the debate tedious or repetitive and have learned a great deal here. This is the first time I have encountered a trans ally willing to respond in detail. Typically there is just an attempt to close down discussion on the grounds of transphobia, and although that has been said, at least the poster has also engaged with the debate and offered explanation where possible.
This has been useful to me because it's important to hear both sides, and this has been a platform to display the strongest arguments that side has and an opportunity for their rebuttle. Unfortunately, as far as I'm concerned, that has been a bit of an own goal for @StolenCookie , as its become increasingly apparent to me at least, that while there is passion and conviction, there has been nothing rational, evidence based or otherwise compelling that has changed my mind from my former less informed view.
Rather a protracted appeal to women to surrender their rights, safety and peace of mind in order that a tiny minority of men who would prefer to be women are accommodated. I apologise for the over simplified conclusion I've drawn from the wealth of detail here. I've read every post carefully and will reflect on them all. That's just a summary of my immediate takeaway.

Well much earlier in the thread, @StolenCookie said she didn't want Isla Bryson, Katie Dolatowski, Barbie Khardashian in her spaces.

But at the same time, she is offering no ideas about how to exclude these men from her definition of 'transwomen' - because she isn't offering a definition.

According to her 'transwomen are women' and no one should be stigmatised because of criminals.

So what are we to conclude? That @StolenCookie doesnt want these men in her spaces, but is happy for them to be in other women's spaces? Because she doesn't give a flying about other women?

How utterly heartless.

A group at Edinburgh Uni did write that acting in that way was a transphobic micro aggression. It is categorised as avoidant behaviour.

Accordingly, this also means that any woman or girl who displayed any kind of negative reaction to a male presence in a female single sex space should be considered transphobic.

This is a form of coercive abuse to require a traumatised woman or girl to remain in the presence of a male person who has entered a space that they expected to be female single sex.

https://www.ed.ac.uk/equality-diversity/students/microaggressions/lgbtq-microaggressions/trans-and-or-non-binary-microaggressions/commontrans-and-non-binary-based-microaggression

A group at Edinburgh Uni did write that acting in that way was a transphobic micro aggression. It is categorised as avoidant behaviour.

I've seen posters from US college campuses that say the same.

@Helleofabore i knew exactly what you meant 😊

thank you for your persistence on this thread

Accordingly, this also means that any woman or girl who displayed any kind of negative reaction to a male presence in a female single sex space should be considered transphobic

Yep, like that 50 year old man who enteres swimming competitions against teenage girls who complained that the parents of the girls forming a shield around them and blocking his view with towels was 'transphobic'.

So next time security stopped the parenta going in the changing rooms so he could perv at their daughters in peace.

non issue. Anyone can dress as they want and be called what they want. No one cares. As long as men keep out of women's sports and women's places, it doesn't affect anyone else, does it. Two transwomen among my friends - one in their 20s one in their 50s

Ok but are you saying those transwomen friends of yours are happy to stay out of women's spaces, because they are men, or are you saying you think they are women so should be allowed in because you don't class them as men?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12350741/amp/Parents-raised-concerns-transgender-pool-official-using-womens-changing-room-time-young-girls.html

This is the incident.

As I mentioned before how many girls were in that changing room? Because they need to be included in the 31 additional women and girls that Stolen consider acceptable to be harmed.

Here are two more girls who had been sexually abused without them even knowing they had.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4870071-gym-swimming-changing-issue?page=1

Two girls being able to describe this male person’s ’man bum and huge breasts’ is them being sexually abused and they didn’t even know they could tell an adult that they had been subjected to it.

I am posting this to show that that number of 31 is very likely been and surpassed long ago.

Go back in time thirty years when being trans was taboo. Transwomen lived their entire lives closeted, dressing as men, marrying women, fathering children, dying as men. And all the time their innate essence meant they were actually women? Pull the other one.

Which men?

Good grief, any potential pervert needs just pop on a skirt and wander in for a look, going by them's say so.

What could possibly go wrong. Parents are right to be careful.

Because some men are born without penises?

I can't read that without thinking of the Nursey character from Blackadder and Queenie giving her a puzzled look.

Men have died wedging themselves into tiny spaces in women's bathrooms to peep. Claiming self-ID would be a piece of piss (sorry...[ in comparison.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/commuter-sexually-assaulted-female-toilets-man-who-later-claims/

There you go.

This person claimed to be a trans woman anx entered toilets and assaulted.

Hang on, we were told that these things never happen?

You asked, another trans woman who sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl in supermarket toilet

https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

How many of these do you want @StolenCookie you did ask for evidence.

We understand perfectly thank you.

However, we've made the decision to take a live and let live philosophy, and do so in order not to have to live our lives like angry little teapots, always ready to bubble over - such as yourself.

Why are you being so aggressively confrontational towards me? Clearly someone did hurt you, and for that, you have my utmost sympathy. But that's still no excuse for aggressive rants targeted at strangers you know nothing about.

😆😆😆

I know. Reading StolenCookies posts feels like I've inadvertently stepped into a parallel universe.

This is what happens when toilets are gender neutral. This was in a school.

https://unherd.com/newsroom/girls-assaulted-in-gender-neutral-toilets-as-predicted/