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What does your network think about trans people?

1000 replies

deeter · 16/02/2024 19:33

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
TheCadoganArms · 24/02/2024 00:09

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 00:05

I identify as a cis woman. It describes me as a person who was assigned female at birth and has a corresponding gender identity. It's used in professional and academic contexts. You may not like it but I'm afraid that's not an imperative for me to stop using it.

You were observed and recorded at birth, not assigned.

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 00:13

OnceinaMinion · 24/02/2024 00:08

But you have to understand a lot of women find it offensive. We aren’t a subset. Just women.

If I said it was ‘literal violence’ would that help?

I perfectly understand this.

I'm a woman too. A cis woman, and not a trans woman. It's how I identify. If that distresses you that's unfortunate for you.

99victoria · 24/02/2024 00:15

But you weren't using it to describe yourself in your previous post - you were using it to refer to non-trans 'women'. I am happy to refer to you as a cis-woman if you want me to but I don't want you to use the term to refer to me

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 00:24

99victoria · 24/02/2024 00:15

But you weren't using it to describe yourself in your previous post - you were using it to refer to non-trans 'women'. I am happy to refer to you as a cis-woman if you want me to but I don't want you to use the term to refer to me

I find it amusing that someone is asking me not to use an academically accepted term on a thread where I have been called all manner of things.

This always happens. Endless references to me being an idiot, illogical, “no one is THIS stupid!”, “you hate women, you are not a feminist!”, “you’re making a tit of yourself”.

One mention of cis and it’s “that offends us, please don’t say it”.

99victoria · 24/02/2024 00:28

I haven't commented on any of your previous posts or said anything like that to you - please stop projecting

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 00:31

I never said you did. It’s been a fairly collective effort.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 24/02/2024 01:08

I'm a woman too. A cis woman, and not a trans woman. It's how I identify. If that distresses you that's unfortunate for you

Likewise, not our problem that you get offended when we use the correct term of man to describe male people.

Trans women want to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity

Tough. They're sex is male and therefore do not belong in female only spaces.

They identify as women

To identify as means you know you are not the thing you are identifying as, so they know damn well they are not actually women.

They belong in a women's bathroom

No, they belong in the men's, with all the other male people.

There is no evidence that allowing trans women into women's spaces increases incidents of sexual violence in those spaces

Yes there is evidence of increased sexual assaults in mixed sex spaces, which is what they become the second a male enters a female only space. Which is why single sex spaces are necessary in the first place.

Again. You can't just let 'some' men in. It's all or nothing.
What you are advocating for is the complete removal of all female rights and protections that are based on our sexed bodies.
That's 50% of the population losing their rights to pander to a minority and their feelings based nonsense ideology.

When does the magic happen cookie?
If a man wearing a suit with a beard told you he was a woman, would you be happy to get undressed in a communal changing room in front of him?

Ramalangadingdong · 24/02/2024 05:58

pickledandpuzzled · 23/02/2024 19:46

Why does what they want have anything to do with it?
Many people want many things. We don’t get them. Truth does not bend to preference.

Yes. Many men want to be in those spaces too - and as far as I am aware are able to gain access just by saying they are female. It is horrible.

Ramalangadingdong · 24/02/2024 06:17

@StolenCookie you haven’t explained to me why trans women haven’t made it a priority to establish their own spaces.

us older feminists worked so hard to establish safe spaces for women. It makes absolutely no sense to me that trans women would want to use them. Most women would absolutely respect the need for this but trans women don’t because they have the entitlement of men. You cannot be born a man into a man’s world and not have even a seed of that privilege within you. To my mind that is one of the reasons for this toxic debate: the unwillingness to accept that trans women are trans women, not women in the sense that I am a woman, which is far more than physical. I will fight alongside you for safe spaces for trans women and do not understand why that isn’t good enough.

pickledandpuzzled · 24/02/2024 06:31

There is evidence that mixed sex changing villages increase incidences of assault and voyeurism. What’s the difference between that and changing rooms which are mixed sex because they include trans women?

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 07:28

Provide evidence that allowing trans women into women’s spaces increases risk to women.

Daily Mail articles don’t count.

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 07:34

Ramalangadingdong · 24/02/2024 06:17

@StolenCookie you haven’t explained to me why trans women haven’t made it a priority to establish their own spaces.

us older feminists worked so hard to establish safe spaces for women. It makes absolutely no sense to me that trans women would want to use them. Most women would absolutely respect the need for this but trans women don’t because they have the entitlement of men. You cannot be born a man into a man’s world and not have even a seed of that privilege within you. To my mind that is one of the reasons for this toxic debate: the unwillingness to accept that trans women are trans women, not women in the sense that I am a woman, which is far more than physical. I will fight alongside you for safe spaces for trans women and do not understand why that isn’t good enough.

Segregating them into a separate space is discriminatory and doesn’t respect their identity as women.

PegasusReturns · 24/02/2024 07:42

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 07:34

Segregating them into a separate space is discriminatory and doesn’t respect their identity as women.

But they’re not women and no one has to respect a made up identity.

GreenAppleCrumble · 24/02/2024 07:46

there is absolutely no evidence that allowing trans women into these spaces increases risk to cis-women.

@StolenCookie
Of course there is. Men are statistically a much higher risk to women than other women are. This risk does not diminish if men put on a dress, say they are a woman, wish they were a woman, believe that they are a woman or tell everyone they are a cat. The level of risk was exactly why the segregation was put in place. Why are you saying this nonsense? You’re convincing no one.

PegasusReturns · 24/02/2024 07:49

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 07:28

Provide evidence that allowing trans women into women’s spaces increases risk to women.

Daily Mail articles don’t count.

Edited

Transwomen are men so allowing TW into female spaces increases the risk to women at least as much as it does by allowing the general male population into female spaces.

interestingly TW, in fact, commit sexual offences at a far higher rate than the general population of men.

Why are the trans community not appalled by this? Why don’t they want to ensure women are protected from these monsters? Why don’t they condemn them?

What does your network think about trans people?
Underthinker · 24/02/2024 07:53

@StolenCookie is sex the only attribute where you think identity should be considered more important than biology?
How about age? If an adult identified as a child, could they join kid's clubs, sports teams etc. And if not, what's the difference?

GreenAppleCrumble · 24/02/2024 07:54

Interested to see what @StolenCookie makes of this data… I’m sure she’ll have a reasoned response that sets us straight.

joylessdivision · 24/02/2024 07:55

PegasusReturns · 24/02/2024 07:49

Transwomen are men so allowing TW into female spaces increases the risk to women at least as much as it does by allowing the general male population into female spaces.

interestingly TW, in fact, commit sexual offences at a far higher rate than the general population of men.

Why are the trans community not appalled by this? Why don’t they want to ensure women are protected from these monsters? Why don’t they condemn them?

The TW I know believe this to flaw with self ID - it allows exploitative men and fetish perverts to get lumped into a catagory with them.

PegasusReturns · 24/02/2024 08:02

The TW I know believe this to flaw with self ID - it allows exploitative men and fetish perverts to get lumped into a category with them

and how do they suggest managing this flaw? Do they accept that because the flaw exists - and it is a significant one- that TW should stay out of women’s spaces thus hurting their feelings or do they think that biological women should take on the risk of being sexually assaulted and raped?

Helleofabore · 24/02/2024 08:06

I see we have cycled around again.

Segregating them into a separate space is discriminatory and doesn’t respect their identity as women

Nobody has the right to demand access to spaces to affirm their philosophical belief while potentially harming the people that the space is designated for. How many times do we need to point out the difference between legitimate and illegitimate discrimination.

I understand that you don’t like it, but it is the law; it is not transphobic.

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 08:10

Helleofabore · 24/02/2024 08:06

I see we have cycled around again.

Segregating them into a separate space is discriminatory and doesn’t respect their identity as women

Nobody has the right to demand access to spaces to affirm their philosophical belief while potentially harming the people that the space is designated for. How many times do we need to point out the difference between legitimate and illegitimate discrimination.

I understand that you don’t like it, but it is the law; it is not transphobic.

There is no law in the UK preventing trans women from using female toilets.

I think the statement “I understand you don’t like it, but it is the law” applies more readily to you.

PegasusReturns · 24/02/2024 08:14

@StolenCookie UNESCO (which I trust is acceptable to you in absence of DM links) has produced reams of data on the risks of mixed sex spaces for women and girls globally.

They strongly recommend single sex spaces to prevent risk of sexual assault and ensure access to education.

more anecdotally I can think of several cases in U.K. and many more in the US where TW have sexually assaulted a girl in toilets. I am not aware of any sexual assaults by women committed in female toilets.

I will never forget the case of the woman who was raped on a female hospital ward who was told this couldn’t have happened because there were no males present. A year later, after gaslighting, denials and abuse, the NHS finally conceded (in the face of CCTV evidence) there had in fact been a TW on the ward and she had in fact been raped. Can you imagine the sheer horror of being gaslit in that manner. Why are we accepting this is ok?!

PegasusReturns · 24/02/2024 08:22

There is no law in the UK preventing trans women from using female toilets

in the same way there are no laws that allow them too

there are laws applicable to schools and places of employment requiring single sex toilets and equality law permits organisations of any sort to exclude men and TW from female spaces.

StolenCookie · 24/02/2024 08:33

PegasusReturns · 24/02/2024 07:49

Transwomen are men so allowing TW into female spaces increases the risk to women at least as much as it does by allowing the general male population into female spaces.

interestingly TW, in fact, commit sexual offences at a far higher rate than the general population of men.

Why are the trans community not appalled by this? Why don’t they want to ensure women are protected from these monsters? Why don’t they condemn them?

Lol.

Looked suspect so reverse-image searched this on Google.

No original source. Just a few posts on Reddit asking “is this even real” and pulling apart the bias.

The fact that it even uses the description “men who identify as women” shows its agenda clearly.

No one will provide a credible source for the transphobic fever dream that allowing trans women into cis women’s spaces increases risk for cis women because it’s not based in reality.

Helleofabore · 24/02/2024 08:38

We already have evidence of the harm that female people experience with the inclusion of this sub group of male people. It is the additional numbers of female people harmed.

Hence we asked for the number of additional female people you consider acceptable and Stolen replied they found 31 additional female people harmed acceptable. I am sure that the two girls raped by Dolatowski will feel that Stolen’s reply was fair. I am sure that the women staying in the female only hostel where Dolatowski lied to get residency would also believe it was fair.

31 is apparently the number. I expect we already have passed that. Considering how few sexual abuses are even reported.

How many girls were in that changing room that the male swimming official walked through because the swimming organisation running the completions didn’t think a male person needed to be told that even if they considered themselves a woman, it didn’t mean they could access a changing room full of girls bouncing into competitive swimwear. This, of course, was not reported to the police because the policy was unclear at the time.

It doesn’t need to be reported for there to be harm, of course. We have had several posters tell us about historic events where males with trans identities even decades ago exposed themselves in the female toilets. Or were wanking in the mirrored communal basin area. I really think 31 has well and truly been passed.

There was the rape in the NHS hospital in the past year or two where the NHS Trust staff told the woman she wasn’t raped as there were no male people on the ward that night. After significant public pressure, turns out there was, the staff gaslighted the woman because they deemed that rapist’s privacy more important than the raped woman’s needs. She was raped by someone registered at the hospital as eligible for a female ward who was male with a trans identity. The woman collecting the accounts from other raped women on hospital wards ended up with over one thousand rapes by male people here in the UK. Never investigated apparently or publicised before. With the statistics we already know, there will be a % of those male people also belonging to the sub group who have trans identities. But we will never have an actual figure, none of those women expected to get justice and they will not. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen though.

Then there was the women reporting the male prisoner who like to masturbate in the shower with the curtain open while making eye contact with any female prisoner coming into the
space. When a female prisoner reported this she was sanctioned herself. Of course, no other female prisoner at that time felt they could report their abuse.

The harm is happening. Despite the denials that a few bad people shouldn’t mean all from a subgroup are excluded. Strong safeguarding looks at the risk of harm and DOES exclude whole groups from spaces when it is felt a legitimate aim. That is the very basis of having those sex segregated spaces in the first place. It is not that hard to understand.

The constant mantraing of TWAW is there to obfuscate the fact they are not female. And the spaces they are using are female single sex spaces. They retain the same risk of committing sex crimes as all other male people and should therefore be excluded.

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