To wonder why some women Aren’t upset about men being in their safe spaces?

[Lion400]

Why would we make it easier for men to be in our safe spaces? Don’t twist my words. This is not about being anti trans women - this is about men not being in women’s safe spaces. Why should women have to allow men in so as to ‘save their feelings’? What about women’s safety, feelings and wishes?

Given stories such as these - examples only but they quite clearly demonstrate the issue. As if anyone needs this. The stats are easily available.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/shana-grice-murder-stalking-police-sussex-a8862611.html?fbclid=IwAR0bJYAs849f0I9VFv7tHw3aguB5C8HZi3yyOMr4LxxIRURs0HBxrc_TxzE

And now the disappointing John Lewis (aka Stonewall) disaster.

https://www.jamesesses.com/p/the-trans-takeover-of-john-lewis

Who puts women first, apart from JKR and friends. It’s a limited list.

The clear point is that women are constantly at risk of male violence. Women-only spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, refuges etc, were set up to try to reduce the risk. (Obviously women are at more risk where they are undressed, or in places where a man can easily block the exit.) Men intruding in women’s spaces wipe out this small alleviation. It makes no difference if the men identify as trans or not.

Can you please show evidence that TW are very much at risk of violence without referencing stats from South American sex workers (I.e. valid for the context we're discussing). How many women do you think are terrified of meeting a male ( likely TW male) in the women's toilets when they just want a wee/ to sort out period stuff. Why does only 1 group of people's need matter?

Men's rights activists. People arguing for TW being welcomed into women's spaces despite the harms that causes women.

@literalviolence I think I will have to disagree a bit about this. Hospital wards have rooms, the opposite gender are in the next room but could walk by with their arse hanging out at any time. This has been the case for years. Changing rooms are manned and unisex now in most shops, as are bathrooms (to accomodate disabled and both genders). if someone of either gender flashed others on purpose/ or even by accident then of course it's an offence. It's never Ok to have to look at someone's genitals without your consent.
The vast majority of sexual violence happens in the home of the victim or the perp. I just feel like the fact that men are arseholes isn't the fault of the vast majority of trans people who are brave and would not choose to feel that way unless they felt had no other option.

@Yazo But we can - and do - campaign on more than one issue?

Also, I can't help wondering if you know what a transwoman is.

I haven't looked at these threads for some time but I still feel like there are some posters who genuinely don't know what some of us have been discussing from....2009.

I've given up, hence I don't really look at these threads any more.

A woman was raped in a 'women's ward' in those country by a TW. There is some separation in hospital wards and if women's needs had been seen as important, this woman would not have been traumatised. Yes the riskiest place is at hime but that doesn't mean we should make a free for all in public. Plus if we let some males in and people think that's OK, we should just mix spaces entirely and save the NHS the administrative burden of having to pretend we have single sex spaces. It's sex BTW not gender. There are 100s of genders so no way could we have ever single gender spaces besides which, most people don't have gender.

I know what it stands for. I don't accept that not being over concerned about trans men in the same toilet as women makes one an MRA.

We're not talking about trans men in women's toilets. They're not a risk to women.
HTH

I'm not sure you do, as trans man is a term used for females who transition to male.

Transmen are welcome of course cos they're female. But people who argue for TW in women's spaces? they're MRAs.

I meant trans women. Apologies.

I'm not over concerned about the possibility of meeting one in the same toilet as I'm in.

I don't accept that that automatically makes me an MRA.

@literalviolence Thats terrible that a woman was raped in the ward. I heard another story about a nurse doing that. (male obvs). Ok sex then not gender. It does not stop women being raped across the world every day on the grand scale in my view. There aren't many trans people in the countries with the worst violations against women I don't think. I'm happy to be proven wrong though.

The problem with saying "female only spaces" means that while it excludes trans women, it includes trans men which actually makes it easier for men to access female spaces.

A friend of mine is trans, he lives his life as a man as he has done for the past decade, has full beard, deep gravelly voice, has been taking hormones, has had top surgery but has not had full bottom surgery - his tubes were tied years ago but full bottom surgery was deemed too risky due to some other health issues he is getting under control.

In the situation where "you use the spaces of your biological sex" and people are not allowed to self identify (if a trans woman can't self identify and use the women's then he can't self identify to use the mens) he would then have to use the women's spaces, despite his very clear male presentation, because he is still biologically a woman with female reproductive organs and genitalia.

This could then lead to a situation where you have people entering "female only areas" who are presenting as male and are biologically female but this then sets a precedent where "males" are routinely entering the female only spaces. The problem comes because there is no way to differentiate between trans men who are using the spaces because they have been told they have to use the space aligned to their biological sex and cis-men who want to enter the female spaces for nefarious reasons.

So all we are doing is turning the issue from "men may be presenting as trans women to assault women in female spaces" to "men no longer need to present as trans women to assault women in female spaces, they just have to say they're a trans man" instead.

Is it a scenario that is likely to be happening to everyone on a daily basis? Not for most of us but my friend would be getting questioned on a daily basis.

I think I might get "third spaces" tattooed on my forehead.
The answer is so blindingly obvious.

I'm not upset because on a personal level I just don't care who's in the other cubicles. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. If a man wanted to walk into the women's toilets or changing rooms he could as there's literally nothing stopping it.

I accept that some other women don't like it, as is their prerogative.

That's some word salad there. The thing is, trans identified females do not pose a threat to women as they are female. If they feel comfortable using the male toilets then they can, as they don't pose a threat to other men either.

But I think your suggestion that 'trans women' can just post as trans men is preposterous.

People tend to be very selfish and if something hasn't affected them or someone they love, they won't care.
I'm not particularly worried for me, but I am for my daughter.
All those thoughtless people who are opening up single-sex spaces to men should be ashamed of themselves.
Let's hope nothing bad happens to someone you love because of something you either don't care about or are advocating for, imagine how guilty you'll feel.

Most women aren't upset because looking at the numbers, you aren't more likely to encounter a predatory transwoman/pretend transwoman than be subject to a hate crime if you do identify as trans.

• 118,000 (0.24%) answered “No” but did not provide a write-in response
• 48,000 (0.10%) identified as a trans man
• 48,000 (0.10%) identified as a trans woman
• 30,000 (0.06%) identified as non-binary
• 18,000 (0.04%) wrote in a different gender identity

45.7 million did the survey (2021)

12 : 11425

Statistically the odds of me encountering a transwoman, let alone an aggressive one, are low.

The cases of predatory men pretending to be transwomen is the exception not the norm. You are looking at 40-50 cases a year of crimes committed by those claiming to be trans. Trans Crime UK – Documenting crimes committed by transgender individuals in the UK

Hate crimes against transgender people hit record high in England and Wales | Hate crime | The Guardian
In the year ending March 2023, 4,732 hate crimes against transgender people were recorded – a rise of 11% on the previous year.

Happy for anyone to give different stats/sources if I am missing something obvious.

Trans crime UK and The Guardian as your sources.

Not unbiased at all.

A trans hate crime can be something as simple as misgendering which they claim to be 'literal violence'. It's a bit different to being raped or murdered.

It’s not a word salad at all and it’s a valid point. By making everyone use the toilets which are for the biological sex they were born in, this allows people presenting as men into women’s loos. Which means that predators don’t even have to go to the effort of dressing as a woman to get entry to those spaces.

Ultimately the issue is predators, not trans people in general. And they’re not known for their honesty and morals so will abuse whatever system they’re presented with

Of course the answer is third spaces and individual cubicles

There's no way I would let any man near my breasts at any of the numerous mammograms I have had to have. The breast unit is deemed a safe space, as it should be, men are not allowed full stop.

I wonder if any of the female posters happy to get rid of woman only spaces will feel as accommodating if they end up with breast cancer, raped, victims of domestic violence in the future.

Perfect post.