AIBU to defend my daughter?

[stressedmummmm]

My daughter is 11 (12 in June) and she has been a handful to handle both at home and in school. She is starting to get into more and more trouble at school and I'm not sure what to do.

Recently she has gotten into trouble for googling her history teacher during class which the teacher. She's gotten an afterschool detention.

Previously she had gotten into trouble for being rude and combative to her very kind teacher. The teacher has said that negative consequences do not have an effect on her, and the sanction system fails her.

Another teacher has said she's so distributive in music class that the teacher has requested she be moved to another class as she didn't want to deal with her anymore.

At home, she will scream at me if she does not get what she wants. She is very rude to us all. She hits her brothers if they do not listen to what she tells them to do, for example, to turn their iPads down. She will scream if her food is not how she wants it. She will scream if I dont take her somewhere specific now.

She is very jealous of me hanging out with my friends or even speaking to them on the phone. If I go out with my friends she will call her father in tears saying I have abandoned them (we live close to my inlaws, and when I go out my inlaws kindly have the kids). She will also text my friends on my Instagram and tell them to not contact me/I don't want to speak to them.

Her father and I had a rough patch a few months ago and she was witness to a lot of the fighting. However, these behaviour issues are not new at all. Amid our fighting, she got into trouble at school. In the first term of the year, she had gotten (within two months) 25 negatives.

I lost my mum at 14. My stepmom was not kind, and she didn't like me. I ended up spending most weekends with my grandmother on my mum's side. As I got older I started spending more time away from my dad's house until I got married at 23, fresh out of uni. I think I tried to give my children as much love as possible, and I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her, but it gets out of hand and the school has mentioned suspension and expulsion more than once. My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse.

I am worried that I have raised a spoiled brat but that she also might be neurodiverse. Her brother has been diagnosed with ADHD, but he behaves much better and his issues were very apparent. Shes smart enough to be masking, but her behaviour is out of hand.

My friend tells me I need to become more harsh with discipline, and I should be punishing her more severely. Especially with the horseriding privileges. How should I do this? Please be kind, I am trying my best here.

As a mum of nuerodivergent children I would say regardless of nuerodiversity children need to learn boundaries, routines and rules. Parents need to teach this because we fail our children if we don't bring them up to be individuals that others can be stand to be around and life has boundaries and rules as does the world so learning this is vital.

My oldest nuerodivergent child has some significant difficulties but does really well in school. His school which has loads of nuerodivergent kids in it are now in a situation that the issues that are arising in his year group are because of poorly behaved nuerotypical boys that haven't been taught boundaries at home. The parents have taken similar attitudes to you and unfortunately and it's now at the point most of the kids cant stand to be around them as they are horribly behaved. I feel sorry for the kids as they have been failed.

I personally have always worked closely with the school. If any my children behaved badly at school they got technology removed at home for the day. This seemed to be enough of a deterrent as they knew I wouldn't tolerate poor behaviour at school or home. They were also often shown social stories about what behaviour was expected of them. I have never defended them if they behaved badly because it just teaches them that they can behave however they want and mum will defend me.

Personally I still take my kids to activities like after school clubs because they need the sensory input and it helps regulate them. They have rules of behaviour on the fridge. They are reminded before we go what's expected of them. There not perfect behaved but they are generally well behaved and I have had a lot of compliments on there behaviour.

I think you need to step back and be totally honest with yourself and your daughters behaviour. If it's unacceptable deal with and let her know any unacceptable behaviour at school or home will not be tolerated.

Do not buy her a horse. She could be aggressive towards the poor thing. Does she help to muck out or take any responsibility for the horses at the riding stables? If not, you are both in for a shock if you buy your own. An expensive shock as well.

When I was a teacher, kids on parents' evenings have said to me more than once (at 16/17), 'I blame my parents, they let me get away with too much'.

Children need boundaries and support in managing their behaviour. That's your job as a parent. The best love and support you can give to her is by helping her understand what's acceptable and what isn't.

Also, I’ve not read the whole thread, but you say you’re defending your daughter but I’m not sure you are, as you’re not saying what she is doing is fine. But I’m not sure what action you actually are taking for you to say that you’re trying your best - you’ve not said in the OP what it is that you’re doing. I don’t think you should defend her actions as they’re awful, but also I can understand you not wanting to demonise your child. However, she isn’t going to change her behaviour herself, so you need to decide whether you’re ok with this behaviour to escalate and for her to be removed from her school etc or whether you need to put stricter sanctions in place.

It makes my blood boil when disrespectful and disruptive kids at school are defended by their parents and allowed to continue disturbing the leaning of other kids. If my kids behaved in this manner they’d have zero privileges. And yes, they are ND.

Mine also have privileged lives, but they know it’s something we parents work hard to provide and they work hard, follow rules and boundaries to enjoy. Parenting is about being the grown up and putting boundaries in place, however much kids don’t like it. That’s the point, they can’t regulate and made judgements unless shown how to.

I don’t agree with stopping horse riding lessons if that is something that actually motivates her. Can you use it to give her more responsibility/something to focus on.

i would look at other areas to bring in boundaries and discipline.

She may or may not be ND, but that doesn't mean anyone gets a get out of jail free card on parenting.

I've got two kids with both ASD and ADHD, we've always tried to set boundaries and if their behaviour falls short, we talk to them, explain why, and make sure they know what's expected.

We try to keep it kind but firm, and obviously make some allowances if they have been feeling stressed/overloaded, but they don't get away with rudeness or making anyone else feel abused or threatened, even if they haven't meant it.

They're now in their late teens, do (mostly) quite well at school and uni, and are much liked by their respective groups of friends.

I do understand though that you have different circumstances, and it's difficult to make assumptions without being in your shoes, but setting some boundaries and only rewarding good behaviour seems a reasonable place to start?

Like many, many others I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

This girl is spoilt, never disciplined, wouldn’t know a consequence if it knocked her phone out of her hand and is allowed to treat her family like shit.

Her behaviour is a direct result of deeply ineffectual parenting.

Yes, you are being unreasonable to defend your daughter at all times.

One might argue that she is testing boundaries — not uncommon at this age — but she is encountering none. So she’s going to keep pushing and pushing until she finds something or someone that stops her. That has to be her parents, working as a team.

You can be loving and set boundaries. Indeed, it is loving to set boundaries. If she breaks school rules, especially re phones, she jolly well endures school sanctions. Normally I’d say what happens at school stays at school, but I think you need actively to reinforce school rules and sanctions at home. You suggest that you defend her come hell or high water and that is not the way to go.

Definitely don’t buy her a horse! Wtf are you thinking? And don’t fall back on ADHD as an excuse. My entire family, including me, has ADHD, and we’re all perfectly capable of behaving. Now, she may have ADHD; she definitely won’t have enjoyed it when you and your partner were going through a rough patch, but neither of those things are an excuse for such behaviour. What’s going to make a difference is how you approach parenting her.

When did you meet her and conduct your assessment?

they get everything they want
This probably explains 99% of your problems. You have an obvious ‘consequence’ with stopping the riding lessons and certainly no horse.

OP what surprises me is your second and third post where you sound like you have absolutely no idea of parenting in terms of discipline and boundaries, yet you've been a parent for over a decade. I really think this is something you need to work on, urgently, so that you can be a better parent to your daugher before things become even worse.

There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour. You need to step up.

All children, neurodiverse or not, need stability, boundaries, rules and consequences. It is exhausting, hard work and repetitive (more so for the parents with neurodiverse children) but consistency is crucial.

Your DD has taken advantage of the lack of boundaries and also your willingness to defend her actions. It is time to take back the reins.

Praise the good and consequences for the bad. You need to write a list of the behaviours that are unacceptable and how that affects the people around her. Then sit down calmly and discuss it with her- she will never see reason in the middle of an argument. Ask her why she is behaving this way, ask why she thinks it is acceptable to speak to people the way she does. Then tell her it stops now. From now on there will be consequences. Set those consequences out and make sure they are consequences you can and do follow through on.

It’s going to be a bumpy ride for a few weeks and you should expect some all mighty fall outs. However, stay calm, consistent and firm. You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs and I doubt you can undo a bad attitude without a few stormy rows either.

Neurodivergence doesn’t mean shit behaviour. Just as shit behaviour doesn’t automatically mean ND. It’s short sighted and actually quite ignorant to suggest as such.

Any child given absolutely no boundaries or discipline and ‘given everything they want’ will potentially end up behaving like this, ND or not.

She's 11. There should be NO access to social media at her age. There are no excuses for having allowed this.That's entirely on you for failure to set boundaries.

I would have removed smartphone/data access the moment she messaged YOUR friends and not returned it until she proved herself to be genuinely sorry and her behaviour improved significantly. I would also have removed it for the 'googling the teacher' incident. That's at least two examples of blatant disregard for others and yet she just continues.

If the school is mentioning suspension and/or expulsion, you should not be the first to defend your daughter to the point where things get out of hand, but instead working WITH the school to help your daughter get her behaviour under control.

On that note, horseriding is a wonderful opportunity for her, but be careful that her blessed life is not blinding her to the fact that the rest of society will have expectations of her, even if you seem not to.

I agree with pp that she is clearly not mature or responsible enough to take on the ownership of a horse of her own.

If you bought her a horse would she scream at it and hit it?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

"The OP has already told us that sanctions don't impact her dd's behaviour, so I don't really understand why people think that more sanctions will be the solution."

No, you haven't read the original post correctly. She said school reported their sanctions weren't working. OP hasn't tried any sanctions. She seemed unaware that she should, meaning this situation has been created over time. If the parent isn't supporting the school, it's worse than simply lax parenting, it's creating an opportunity for the child to control the situation. I have observed this countless times over the last thirty years, back when it wasn't considered fashionable to 'seek' diagnoses and in the current age. OP needs to try setting her own boundaries and being consistent alongside the work the school is doing. The advice to act as though the child is ND without diagnosis (meaning, in this case, condone poor behaviour) is very poor advice considering the information we have been given. Don't worry, OP has money, she'll get her diagnosis eventually.
I'm sure you'll wilfully misread this as well, accusing me of ableism.

Hi op, it sounds as if your own difficult experiences of being parented have affected how you parent (understandably, as you wanted her to always feel the love you didn’t).

I know it’s hard, but you do need more boundaries in place. For example, why does she have access to your social media accounts? If she is googling people in class why does she have the privilege of phone/internet?

Please Google early help for your local authority and see what programmes they can offer you, such as NVR or ‘Who’s in charge’. I think you would massively benefit from these.

I have horses. Neither they nor fellow owners want to deal with someone who scream and tantrums their way thru life!

deal with her behaviour. Stop the horse riding lessons. Spend the £100+ per week these are most likely costing you in some therapy for her. Make her earn nice things by being nice!

and yes get her assessed- if she is neurodiverse then scrap everything I’ve said above and seek specialist support/guidance from those in similar situations who know how to manage neurodiversity (I don’t so my response is assuming she’s a brat and is irrelevant If she is neurodiverse)

The OP has already told us that sanctions don't impact her dd's behaviour, so I don't really understand why people think that more sanctions will be the solution

OP doesn't actually seem to understand that any sanctions or boundaries are necessary as part of the parenting process.

Sit her down, tell her you love her you are worried about her behaviour. Does she know why she is having these outbursts?

you also need to think about what the connecting factors are (control?)

then tell her she needs to learn to manage her feels and cope appropriately. To help her, all horse riding lessons stop now, you treat her like a younger kid and get her a chart - star for each day without incident, 21 days no incident she gets to ride again. Incidents after that stop the riding lessons until she’s behaved for 21 days. You also need to have alongside this consequences for poor behaviour such as no iPad, no tv/desserts/days out.

keep open lines of discussion but be firm in enforcing consequences

In the meantime get her a diagnosis.

I know that neurodivergence doesn't mean shit behaviour and that shit behaviour doesn't mean neurodivergence. I have acknowledged that loads of times on this thread already, and been very, very clear that I don't regard adhd etc as a get out of jail free card. It isn't.

However, I am not sure what assessment you have carried out with regard to the OP's dd that enables you to say so unequivocally that neurodivergence isn't a factor here and that it's entirely down to the parenting. You can't possibly know if you're basing it on the OP's posts alone.

Why would we punish him again for something he had already been adequately punished for?

My goodness! Your child is out of hand. Be her mother and show her you are in charge and will not tolerate poor behaviour. Horse privilege stops now. Electronics stop now. She’s been terribly behaved at home and school and she knows it. She earns back privilege slowly, over time and with good behaviour.

I’m saying it’s irrelevant. The OP’s weak parenting will directly result in this behaviour, ND or not. The OP has never applied discipline and doesn’t seem to understand how to.