To have been told off by HR for this?

[Mhassy]

I asked a member of the HR team if they had children, in the context of discussing a flexible working request. This was in the small talk/intro part of the conversation, it wasn’t said to make a point or anything, or to bolster my request for flexible working. It was literally a polite back and forth before the actual meeting began, she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty and I just asked - I thought politely! - if she had children. She told me she didn’t and the time had passed for her to now. We then moved onto the meeting itself.

Anyway, a day later I have a called from someone high up in HR to say I shouldn’t ask people if they have children and this is not an appropriate question in the workplace.

I do get that pregnancy etc can be a sensitive topic. I lost a baby a few years ago and it was and incredibly painful time at work and I felt triggered by any small talk about babies. However I would never have made an issue and I didn’t make an issue when the topic was raised.

AIBU to think this is a step too far to be policing this sort of conversation? I am recently a single parent and wouldn’t launch into being offended if I was asked if I had a partner? Where does it end? I was only making conversation!

Asking IF someone has children and WHY they don’t are two very different questions. I see a lot of people on here conflating them and suggesting OP is unreasonable based on that.

@ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees everything you've said is completely reasonable. It's understandable why someone may be upset. But this person complained and got the OP a talking to from HR. Whatever their own situation that's a shitty thing to do to someone for asking a completely reasonable question in a discussion about children which they started.

Oh come on, it’s not appropriate to ask if someone has children in this setting. You didn’t get a warning or a bollocking, you got told it wasn’t appropriate and it isn’t. I don’t think it’s a big deal, but you clearly do!

This is how it is where I work. HR are on the side of management and you can get nowhere.

Eightfour · Today 18:46

@Runnerinthenight - 100% not my experience of HR at all. In my experience HR is there to protect the company from its employees and nothing more. I have had bosses admit as much. Must have had the misfortune of only ever experiencing and observing poor HR…

You must have. I've well over 30 years' experience and am professionally qualified for many years too. How do you think HR protects the company? By making sure they follow the goddamn rules and don't end up in an IT!! Thereby doing the right thing by the employees!

Just because someone is upset by something, doesn't mean it was wrong or inappropriate.

This! Where I work it would be considered unprofessional and the wrong side of the diversity and inclusion line. You don't ask people personal questions like that as you don't know their circumstances and it's none of your business. You could make someone very uncomfortable. HR were right to reprimand to you. You're at work, not a cafe in the park. Keep it professional.

Holy hell …. I despair for the state of the world if an HR Professional cannot handle a question that they have deemed inappropriate
“ We’re not here to talk about me…. Back to your request”. If they don’t have the chops for it they should perhaps find a profession where they don’t have to interact with people.

I always responded in a super chipper voice “No I have cats!” Generally that sort of shocked them 😁

It does seem over the top to complain but thinking about it, I would never ask a colleague if they have children. There's obviously the potential for it to be a sensitive topic. If they do have them they will mention it themselves.

Exactly this.

I really hate this 'HR is not your friend' nonsense. Is Finance your friend? Marketing? People are at work to do their job.

Exactly, I learned the hard way years ago in my 20s asking s woman about 40 if she had children(didn't care either way, think I wanted to appear mature) she lashed me out of it and told me it was none of my business, lesson learnt.

I don’t doubt there’s poor HR professionals across many organisations, just like any other function.

But I’ve because of my job I’ve often had friends/acquaintances complaining about “HR just being on the side of management” with issues they’ve had with their own employers. With one exception, I can tell you that HR’s only offence seemed to be managing the situation in line with the law and their T&Cs, and not simply agreeing with the employee.

In the real world people don’t go to tribunal even if they have good cases because it’s stressful, time consuming, expensive and you risk becoming unemployable in your industry even if you win. Speaking from personal experience and observation HR just does a very good job of making sure the stressful, time consuming and expensive parts really apply to stop people going forward with tribunals.

It is difficult - TBH if we considered every single thing we said in case there might be someone in the room who might be offended, communication would die out. Unless of course we are saying something that is actively offensive, which is of course wrong.

I noticed that after my OH died people were tiptoeing round me when the subject of anyone dying came up, but we all die and the subject is bound to come up. Of course there were times when it felt a bit uncomfortable at the beginning, but people cannot stop talking about normal subjects on the off chance someone might be hurt.

I think HR were OTT.

I already spend so much time doing HR's work for them, that I should probably be declared a honorary HR person and get paid their salary instead.
They never seem to have time to do any actual work but running around complaining well they're the experts. Just Google 'why do people hate HR'.
Recruiting staff, dealing with disability etc etc if it was up to them I'd have lost some of my best employees who fell on hard times through no fault of their own.
Before you get your hackles up.. I started in IT... and just as many people hate us! For good cause.
You may be brilliant but you can't deny that the sort of people who do it generally have a certain mindset. If you're one of the rare efficient, empathetic and nuanced ones, congratulations, you deserve a raise.

@Runnerinthenight and @MajorCleven

I'm not saying for one minute that the lady who complained was right. She wasn't. Yes, absolutely she should be better able to control her emotions but no one knows what she is currently dealing with it.

I agree, if it's something that continues then she shouldn't be in a role but if it's a once off then I can understand why it may have happened.

The Senior HR person probably agrees with that but telling someone immediately that they cannot be in a role because they got very upset on one occasion mightbonly asd to their difficults depending on time but yes, it should be addressed if it persists.

What's the Senior HR person to do? Do nothing and it's mentioned again and it causes more issues. She just mentioned it. No warning, no discipline, nothing over the top. It's over and the OP hasn't suffered in anyway.

Understanding something does mean, I agree with it. I'm just saying I can understand it and don't think it's that big an issue given no negative consequences for the OP.

@FirstFallopians - then why are organisations like ACAS and Pregnant then Screwed so popular? Just read some of the threads on here.

@ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees the senior HR person manages their own employee by sympathising and understanding why they were upset but gently explaining that the OPs question didn't seem unreasonable in the context of the HR person asking about their own child. And leaves it at that. Contacting the OP and suggesting it was unreasonable is ridiculous.

Not every organisation has an HR department.

Even if they do HR can only advise management, we can’t force them to take their advice.

The problem is that a flat 'no' sounds awkward (try the conversation in your head and you'll see what I mean) which puts the childfree person in the awkward position of having to add something when there may not be anything they'd feel comfortable adding:

"No, I have cats/dogs/nieces/nephews" - no use if you don't have any of those
"No, I'm not able to have children" - you probably wouldn't want to share this with a stranger
"No, I don't want children" - makes you sound like a child-hater, which probably isn't the case.

Best not to ask the question of people you don't know.

Having children and therefore, fertility is a really sensitive topic. I’m surprised a group of women cannot understand this!

OP was told not to do it again, she wasn’t fired or thrown in the stocks. 😂

the senior HR person manages their own employee by sympathising and understanding why they were upset but gently explaining that the OPs question didn't seem unreasonable in the context of the HR person asking about their own child. And leaves it at that. Contacting the OP and suggesting it was unreasonable is ridiculous.

I have to agree.

If small talk is not welcome/a two way conversation about families, then you don’t instigate that conversation.

Yes but the OP didn't barrel in ask her out of nowhere. She asked first, and OP chatted a bit and politely returned the question. It's instinctive.
Also one presumes that someone who'd had a bad experience wouldn't want to engage in chat about other people's children.. which she did, at length!
She didn't HAVE To ask about OP's DD she could have turned the conversation to other topics and this wouldn't have happened. I assume that someone has an interest in something if they ask me about it.

Eightfour · Today 19:02

@FirstFallopians - then why are organisations like ACAS and Pregnant then Screwed so popular? Just read some of the threads on here.

I don't need to. I know they are, and there are many reasons.

Organisations where HR allow managers to ride roughshod over their advice and don't stand up to them and tell them they're wrong, or can't, because their own job would be at risk. Organisations that don't have robust policies/procedures/competent HR. Mistakes. Organisations who don't care and are willing to take the consequences, particularly if they are pretty sure the employee don't not have the resources to defend their position.

I'm not saying shit doesn't happen. It does. It happened to me. But HR done properly ought to protect employee as much as employer - so long as HR has integrity, and individual HR managers have integrity.