To have been told off by HR for this?

[Mhassy]

I asked a member of the HR team if they had children, in the context of discussing a flexible working request. This was in the small talk/intro part of the conversation, it wasn’t said to make a point or anything, or to bolster my request for flexible working. It was literally a polite back and forth before the actual meeting began, she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty and I just asked - I thought politely! - if she had children. She told me she didn’t and the time had passed for her to now. We then moved onto the meeting itself.

Anyway, a day later I have a called from someone high up in HR to say I shouldn’t ask people if they have children and this is not an appropriate question in the workplace.

I do get that pregnancy etc can be a sensitive topic. I lost a baby a few years ago and it was and incredibly painful time at work and I felt triggered by any small talk about babies. However I would never have made an issue and I didn’t make an issue when the topic was raised.

AIBU to think this is a step too far to be policing this sort of conversation? I am recently a single parent and wouldn’t launch into being offended if I was asked if I had a partner? Where does it end? I was only making conversation!

Because when you say No, I don’t have children, you feel awkward and like you have to explain yourself. It’s tiresome.

This is so true. Because there is a reason if someone doesn't have children, it's not just a yes/no answer.

@Aprilx Look back over all the conversations you've had with all the people you've ever worked with. Have you never said anything in passing anything that anyone might have found painful? Never talked about having a lovely day out with your dad on Father's day in front of someone whose dad is dying painfully or who abused and abandoned them? Never gone on about how you've dieted down to a size 8 for a summer wedding/ holiday in front of a colleague who is twice your size and silently feeling suicidal about it? Never grumbled jokily about your husband's minor shortcomings without knowing that the woman you're talking to was widowed only a few months ago and would do anything to have her less-than-perfect husband back? Never said anything that anyone might find racist or anti-semitic or homophobic? Talked about the joys of coupledom and your fantastic sex life in front of people who feel total failures for having neither? Complained about your children's naughty behaviour without knowing that the person you're speaking to has a disabled child who they wish could be as naughty as yours?

I doubt there's a single one of us who hasn't, unknowingly, said or done something that's caused someone else real emotional pain at work. Life is painful. Trying to legislate for this, or enforce it, is ridiculous and futile. I suspect it would be also be very sexist. Women would be expected to be even more ultra-sensitive to everything, and even more anxious, while men would be cut a lot of slack because, well, they're men and we all know men have lower EQ than women, don't we? (That was kinda ironic and also not, IYKWIM. Apologies to all the sensitive men pained by my generalisation).

You don't have to explain why you don't have children, do you? 'No' is a complete answer. You have a choice whether to explain or not. If they start prying about why you can say 'Why, does this bother you?' I've done that.

A previous poster suggested a very useful response that I hope I remember:
'No, I dodged that bullet, fortunately.'

But none of those examples are the same as what happened here.

Wittering on about how lovely your (general your) life and family are is just wittering on. Some colleagues might find it interesting, some might be bored by it, some colleagues might compare their own situation and be unhappy.

But it's another step entirely to then start asking questions about your colleagues lives and families. If they want to join in, they will but if they don't, it's not up to you (general you) to start asking them.

Exactly. The HR person will have known OP has recently had a child. Asking about that child, acknowledging the existence of that child is miles different from the OP asking if the HR person has children.

I see we're now getting an invented scenario that HR was making the child a reason for justifying flexible working.

That is not what this thread is about. Everybody (me included) encounters general chit chat that might remind themselves of their own less fortunate circumstances.

I still do not expect to go into a formal work place meeting and have the other person, who I may not have even met me before, ask direct questions about my fertility and / or life choices. I am not sure what you are not getting about this.

Why do you think your pain at your infertility is somehow worse than the pain felt by a family being bankrupted? You're working on the basis that your pain is worse and more justified than anyone else's? What would someone else have to be going though to out-pain your pain?

The person I quoted said ‘flexible working because of childcare’

Theres no such things as a flexible working because of childcare request.

The feedback Op got is that it was inappropriate for a work conversation. In which case asking about a child, in a work place conversation is inappropriate as it has nothing to do with work.

As people have said, there could be many reasons a woman doesn’t want to be asked about her child. She may not be doing well, may be struggling, the child maybe be poorly, the child could have been a twin pregnancy where one was lost and so on.

and if this company is going to be so hard on what’s a workplace conversation bringing up children isn’t a good idea when it has no relevance to the request.

This person started the conversation talking about kids. If it’s inappropriate to ask a woman if she has kids, it’s inappropriate to bring up someone’s children.

I don’t expect to go to a workplace meeting and have someone I barely know ask after my children.

Op's colleague did just that 😵‍💫

This.

I wonder whether the HR woman got back to her office, realised that bringing up the subject of children in formal meeting to discuss a flexible working request might open the door to a claim of discrimination under the Maternity PC and decided to deter the OP with an admonitory shot across the bow?

It's sexist as hell, isn't it? Wonder whether the equivalent interview with a man applying for flexible working starts with questions about his children? What do they assume men want flexible working for — or don't they ask, because that would be invasive and potentially discomforting for him? Poor chap. Meanwhile the OP, being a woman and expected to be a super-sensitive mind-reader, gets a telling off.

The meeting was about her though, it's expected that if you have a meeting about yourself that you will be asked about yourself as long as it isn't intrusive. It's something else to then ask the other person who the meeting isn't about. The OP hasn't specified that the HR person asked about her DD out of the blue or if OP mentioned her and put of politeness HR asked how she is doing. I doubt she would have brought up OPs daughter if she has no children herself but OP hasn't updated.

It's an assumption of course, but assuming the OP had her maternity leave with the current employer amongst the members of staff who legitimately are entitled to know, without asking, whether an employee has a new baby, are the HR team.

There's clearly a difference between HR's position and OP's so far as casual chat.

I don't feel the need to explain myself or say anything beyond 'No' and I can't remember anyone ever pressing me to expand.
Maybe I just give off 'back off, nosey' vibes or something

Sorry, what's the difference?
But it's another step entirely to then start asking questions about your colleagues lives and families. If they want to join in, they will but if they don't, it's not up to you (general you) to start asking them
The colleague asked about op's dd unprompted.

We don't know if it was unprompted. You can't tell from the OP's version of events who mentioned the child first.

There's clearly a difference between HR's position and OP's so far as casual chat.

You're going to have to spell that out. HR making assumptions based on OP's sex and maternity status and initiating a conversation based on OP's Maternity PC? OP encouraged to think by HR she was having a casual chat about children with someone who was interested while HR may have her on a list of people who they'd quite like to manage out? Something else entirely?

I'd have thought it was a fairly safe assumption that if someone says "How is little Jenny?", there hadn't been previous mention of little Jenny.
But whatever.

Surely if it was inappropriate HR would have shut it down immediately?
'Ahem, now back to your application for flexible working?'

You're inventing stuff now. If OP mentioned baby first, it's not inappropriate for HR to acknowledge the existence of this baby.

That's a mile away from asking "do you have children?"

HR know plenty of stuff that they are obliged not to bring up in a work meeting.

Knowing something doesn’t mean it’s ok to bring it up. Especially in a work place conversation. Which the person having a go said. it was a work conversation. And it was inappropriate to ask if this woman had children.

In which case, it was a work place conversation and it was inappropriate to bring up the Ops private life and her child. Or indulge in a conversation about the child (if op brought the child) and she should have nudged the conversation back to work not then ask questions and join in the conversation then moan she didn’t like where it went.

Oh, stop reaching 😂