To have been told off by HR for this?

[Mhassy]

I asked a member of the HR team if they had children, in the context of discussing a flexible working request. This was in the small talk/intro part of the conversation, it wasn’t said to make a point or anything, or to bolster my request for flexible working. It was literally a polite back and forth before the actual meeting began, she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty and I just asked - I thought politely! - if she had children. She told me she didn’t and the time had passed for her to now. We then moved onto the meeting itself.

Anyway, a day later I have a called from someone high up in HR to say I shouldn’t ask people if they have children and this is not an appropriate question in the workplace.

I do get that pregnancy etc can be a sensitive topic. I lost a baby a few years ago and it was and incredibly painful time at work and I felt triggered by any small talk about babies. However I would never have made an issue and I didn’t make an issue when the topic was raised.

AIBU to think this is a step too far to be policing this sort of conversation? I am recently a single parent and wouldn’t launch into being offended if I was asked if I had a partner? Where does it end? I was only making conversation!

Yep learned this the hard way. HR are never ever your friend. And they stick together and back each other up. Can get you fired if they so wish.

Bloody hell you're missing the point of it. People ask to show they acknowledge you as a human being with a full life, not just a surgery/checkout/ teaching/ finance/ whatever bot. They are not invested in your argument with your partner, your foray to the swingers club or supermarket or jazzercise class. It is incumbent on you to reply with as much or little information as you wish, not for people to cut out all social interactions or for these to be banned as per the OP. Why do you think so many people reply with 'lovely thanks! You?' compared to the number that give you chapter and verse?

Exactly this. A colleague this morning cheerily asked how my annual leave was earlier this week on a call. I replied good thanks rather than detail the actual thing I was dealing with which was not something I’d divulge to a colleague. Small talk just greases wheels of human interaction. I actually do not understand how some of the people on this thread function day to day. Colleague says how are you? None of your business shithead, it’s private.

I very much doubt that she was asking about OPs children except in the context of the flexible working request.

@wombat15 - “she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty”

That’s from the OP, the HR woman didn’t need to ask how OP’s daughter was to process a flexible working request.

Most people are "touchy" about some subjects though. That's why people need to think about what they say when talking to complete strangers. Also why the weather is such a popular topic.

Who knows what HR have to ask in order to process a flexible working request. It would depend on the company policy in deciding what was and wasn't reasonable surely?

I think it’s bit odd to ask how someone’s evening went unless they happened to mention they were going to see a film or show or something. “Good weekend?” On a Monday morning is not quite the same.

Flexible working requests should be taken into account based on the business’ needs. How OP’s daughter is doing is irrelevant to the company and OP’s request. So HR woman didn’t need to ask, she chose to ask. She chose to start a conversation about children and then ran to HR about it.

Flexible working requests should be taken into account based on the business’ needs. How OP’s daughter is doing is irrelevant to the company and OP’s request. So HR woman didn’t need to ask, she chose to ask. She chose to start a conversation about children and then ran to HR about it.

Generally people say why they want the flexible working, so if the OP said it was because of childcare, then it is polite to ask after said child. I doubt very much whether the HR person really cares or wanted to start a conversation about kids.

There was no reason why the OP then had to ask her if she had kids. It wasn't relevant to the conversation which was about the OPs flexible workign request presumably due to childcare.

She didn't run to HR about it. She is HR. We don't know what conversation happened after the meeting. We also don't know whether the OP asked just in conversation or whether there was the "if you have children you will understand but if you don't you won't" theme that women like us have to endure constantly.

And the language in some of the posts about childless women even on this thread demonstrate the bullshit and insults that we have to hear every day.

Being spoken to about it in this 'stern' way when it was the HR person who had started the personal chit-chat would piss me off so much that I think I'd have to have a follow-up call / email with the person who rang me about it.

Something along the lines of,

"I was caught very off-guard by your phonecall instructing me that I must never ask a colleague whether they have children. I was and remain very sorry to have inadvertently caused offence by that question.

However, on reflection, I do feel the need to bring to your attention that what I considered to be the polite small-talk about children was initiated by your staff member. In particular she asked how things were going with DD [and any other questions she asked].

While I had no issue with this, by the same token as your advice to me, I can see that some people might be upset by this (for example, if things were not going well with DD, such a seemingly innocuous question may cause upset).

Further, according to the general rules of polite conversation, most people will be inclined to ask reciprocal questions to questions that are asked of them so as not to appear self-centred and rude. If some of your colleagues particularly wish to avoid questions about their own family situation (or anything else), I think it may be useful feedback to suggest to them that not initiate polite small talk about those topics in order to best guard against polite reciprocal questions in the same vein.

Again, I am very sorry to have unwittingly caused offence and will endeavour to avoid this in future.

Kindly fuck off Regards

OP"

Probably not advisable, and I expect I'd think better of it before I pressed send, but the temptation would be strong in me!

Generally people say why they want the flexible working, so if the OP said it was because of childcare, then it is polite to ask after said child. I doubt very much whether the HR person really cares or wanted to start a conversation about kids.

What if OP needs more flexibility because her child is seriously ill, or has developed a life-changing disability, or has MH issues? Does the fact that OP might find it quite painful to talk about that matter or not?

You bring caring into the discussion. You don't think the HR person really cares or wants to talk about children: she's just going through the motions with OP. And yet when OP goes through the motions with her by asking 'And you, do you have children?' in order to be polite and not make the conversation one-sided, the HR woman runs off and puts in a complaint because OP has behaved inappropriately.

Can you not see how toxic this situation is?

@LightsCameraBloodyDoSomething I swear that I hadn't read your post before I wrote mine. Good to know I'm not the only one thinking these thoughts.

Great minds!

Some of the other examples of "what not to ask in case you upset someone" seem a bit concerning to me.

People at work together might not be friends or family but they're still part of a community. Purposely not asking if someone had a good Christmas because they might be suffering in a violent relationship might mean they're not upset at work but it does nothing to help get them out of that situation. Is that really the better outcome? Presumably if they didn't need help to get out of the relationship then they already would have done. Even just being a friendly ear might encourage them to get help - but hey - congratulations on using exactly the right form of words that won't potentially get you into trouble!

Quite genuinely, I wonder whether part of the mass-offence-taking that seems to be on the increase stems from fewer children and adults being taught how to hold a polite conversation.

Less talking round a dinner table, less expectation to make polite conversation with your parents friends, less experience in showing an interest in people with whom you have nothing in common etc.

And because there is no sense of these things, there is a sense that every question is really truly Directed At Them and no sense of ritualistic social norms around conversational turn-taking or standard form polite deflections.

The irony is, of course, that we had a perfect solution for this already, which was, "how do you do?" with the correct response being, "how do you do?" with no expectation of actually answering the question! Bring that back!

Unless it's information you actually need to have, I wouldn't ask in the course of a work conversation. If the other party wants you to know she has children, she will usually volunteer the information.

I think you've hit on something really relevant, @LightsCameraBloodyDoSomething I was talking only the other day to a friend whose two DDs in their 20s are steadily climbing the career ladder, which has taken her by surprise because neither of them was a stellar student. I reminded her that they were both great with people and able to talk to anyone — which frankly isn't that common among a lot of young people.

I had a cousin's daughter come to stay over the weekend and having any kind of a conversation with her was painful. She'd asked to stay (and travelled for three hours to get here) but once here hardly raised her eyes from her phone. She's not thriving at work and I can guess why.

How is it different? 😵‍💫

This is so tricky. I don't have children for whatever reason (ie, a reason I don't want to go into) but it is such a sensitive subject in this world we now live in where everyone is talking about themselves, their family life on social media etc. The person may have been upset, but you didn't do anything wrong. It's very difficult (in my experience) to be a person who doesn't have children (and not just women, my husband has felt the same on many occasions) because it's a natural ice-breaker "Have you got kids?" "Oh yeah, we're going to that with the kids too" etc etc. And we don't always want to explain ourselves (and does anyone care?!), particularly if it's because of an unseen condition that isn't infertility. You didn't do anything wrong, but it's easy to be over-sensitive in this world we live in now, where everything is so scrutinised. It's a natural ice-breaker, but it is hard for some people. I have found myself trying to justify myself as I'm a woman of X age, but without children. It's hard. I am neither "child-less" (fertility isn't my issue), nor "child-free" (it isn't down to personal choice"). It's hard. But you definitely didn't do anything wrong :) xx

I find the response 'no, dodged that bullet, thank God' is a very effective way of shutting the conversation down.

No. Your reason for wanting flexible working is not part of the request. It should never be considered as part of it.

It’s also polite, when someone brings up a subject and asks questions, to reciprocate and ask similar questions.

If you don’t want to discuss a subject, don’t start the conversation related to the subject.

No. HR should never ask if someone has children to process a flexible working request.

It’s entirely irrelevant to the process. And could open the company and the HR team to accusations of discrimination.

The other person raised the subject and you replied in a completely ordinary way. If my employer behaved like this I'd start looking for another job.

Someone's got their nose outa joint and it's not you. Not your problem her ship has sailed. Yes, this wokey woke thing us too much.