To have been told off by HR for this?

[Mhassy]

I asked a member of the HR team if they had children, in the context of discussing a flexible working request. This was in the small talk/intro part of the conversation, it wasn’t said to make a point or anything, or to bolster my request for flexible working. It was literally a polite back and forth before the actual meeting began, she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty and I just asked - I thought politely! - if she had children. She told me she didn’t and the time had passed for her to now. We then moved onto the meeting itself.

Anyway, a day later I have a called from someone high up in HR to say I shouldn’t ask people if they have children and this is not an appropriate question in the workplace.

I do get that pregnancy etc can be a sensitive topic. I lost a baby a few years ago and it was and incredibly painful time at work and I felt triggered by any small talk about babies. However I would never have made an issue and I didn’t make an issue when the topic was raised.

AIBU to think this is a step too far to be policing this sort of conversation? I am recently a single parent and wouldn’t launch into being offended if I was asked if I had a partner? Where does it end? I was only making conversation!

unfortunately you don’t know her past etc but if she was asking about your child I think I would probably of asked back if they had children so I’m a bit torn on this one!

The vast majority of us have no idea about the experiences of victims of rape and sexual assault, victims of both sexes, because so many victims don't ever talk about it.

If we don't discuss difficult things we'll be stuck talking about the weather and pets (though, actually, best avoid pets in case someone's cat's just died) and we'll be back where my grandmother's generation started: focussed on gossip and trivia, silent on things that really need need talking about.

You can't expect the world to mysteriously know a particular subject is painful for you and run to HR if someone fails to pick up the vibes. You have to learn to manage your own feelings and responses. Emotional pain is an intrinsic part of life: none of us escapes it. Trying to shut the world down so that you feel better is both impossible and approaching the issue from the wrong angle.

Not neurotypical here and I could not work in
Vito's ideal workplace. I need that normal human interaction. I've found that when I get to know many neurotypicals, they aren't completely different to me. They find some things easier, but not necessarily easy.

It was thoughtless to ask, and I think the context of a flex working request makes it even worse! If HR says they don't have children and then deny you your request, face it, you'd be much more likely to assume they are not understanding/ empathetic to your situation, and pursue an escalation/ grievance etc.

Just to add a point of view from someone that works in HR. I returned to work following a miscarriage and soon after, during a similar kind of meeting I was asked the same. It took everything I had in me not to cry as I was still quite hormonal and understandably upset so I politely said ‘maybe one day’ and it was a struggle through the rest of the meeting. When I got back to my desk I burst into tears and my manager (the HR Director) asked what had happened and similarly wanted to contact the person but I told her not to. It was more of a protective thing as she was upset that I was upset but of course, you can only communicate it’s inappropriate without giving away my personal circumstances. I know you absolutely did not mean any harm with your question like I’m sure the person who asked me didn’t but just to give another potential point of view.

On the face of it this seems like harmless small talk but actually I think HR were totally right - there are so many ways of making small talk that don't directly intrude on someone's private life.

Would you ask "do you have a husband/boyfriend?" No, it would be deeply inappropriate. There are all sorts of reasons someone might not want to answer that. "Do you have a child?" is very akin to that imo. I've had to make a lot of small talk over the years and I've never come close to asking either of those things. I also don't ask about people's parents, I don't ask whether they own their house or rent, I don't ask them what political party they support.

To get the conversation going I might talk about whatever bits of my life I'm happy to - I might mention DP or that I'm child-free. The nature of small talk is that if the person I'm talking to feels comfortable to talk about similar things the ball is in the court to do so; if they're not we move on to something else. I wouldn't talk about being NC with my parents and if someone talked about their parents I would say "mm-hmm that's nice" and change the subject.

Small talk is meant to be bland and neutral, it's not the most meaningful interaction there is.

Did you tell them that she asked about your daughter first?! You simply responded with fine thanks, do you have any children? I think you should bring it up. So that they can tell her not to ask staff about their children too. It works both ways.

Well it seems that OPs workmate started the whole thing off by making an enquiry about OPs DD. If someone asks you about your own children you sort of feel it's polite to return the question.

If she didn't want to be asked about her own parenthood status perhaps she shouldn't have mentioned children in the first place. Perhaps HR would like to point that out to her so she won't risk being offended in future.

If the HR woman was asking about your kids then she can't just have a tantrum because you then asked if she had kids.

I'd be expecting the same stern conversation with the HR person!

Honestly, what an overreaction.

I wonder if the HR person actually tried to speak to the complainer and gently explain that this is what comes under ‘normal conversation’ and not bullying, insensitivity, whatever…

it’s so silly - you have to monitor your conversation? At work most people don’t care if you have a husband, wife, kids, cat, car… most often they are just making polite small talk and probably won’t remember anyway.

You've completely missed the point. The comment about "the vast majority of us not knowing" is unfounded , unsubstantiated nonsense which demonstrates that poster has zero understanding of how sexual assault happens.

As far talking about and making jokes about rape alarms in a workplace, how can you think that's appropriate?

This.

And men tend not to be asked the same question.

I'm glad I don't work with you. "How my evening went" is none of your business. My private, out of work life is none of your business.

I mean if she's asking you personal things about your child I don't see why you wouldn't? Seems odd to me, but I'd just put it down to experience & try to move on

Wow. Don’t worry I wouldn’t ask you, I’d be avoiding you at all costs.

Rape victims are a minority in the population,

I suppose 1 in 4 technically qualifies as "a minority" but that's a huge number of women. In an office of 8 people that would be 2 of them. Your post shows zero understanding of the reality of rape and sexual assault.

Statistics on sexual assault

Hmm, I work in HR and it seems like it's your HR team sticking together. One has complained to maybe her line manager who has taken it more seriously than you meant it. Some people can be sensitive about certain topics and this is maybe a hard lesson for you that nobody at work is your friend.

Yet here you are on MUMSnet???

So no mention of dps incase work mates are single?

BINGO!!!!

Lord people are so touchy. Unless people are asking something deeply personal, just don’t answer or change the subject.

I remember being asked by a colleague how I could afford the flat we just bought. I was quite gobsmacked so make up some whole story about how I was X ‘as in’ the X family (same name as a famous brand) and how I was just slumming it in the office but was actually awfully awfully wealthy… actually that was quite amusing.

I do bugger all at weekends because I sleep mostly because I’m not well. When people say ‘nice weekend?’ I just say ‘yes thanks - what did you get up to?’ and let them tell me all about the stuff they do that I would have loved to have the strength to do.

No this is a lesson that no one in HR is your friend.

I think what people are missing is that this wasn't usual conversation between work colleagues, but a meeting for OP to meet with HR re her flexible work request.

Asking the HR officer if she has children is completely irrelevant to that conversation. I can't imagine meeting an HR officer for presumably the first time and starting off with small talk that way.

It's completely different to asking someone in your team in the course of general chit chat.

I think this was a reasonable conversation topic to bring up, considering the context.

FYI, I was on a catch up with my boss this week. At the start of the call, I noticed she had lovely earrings on and asked her about these. Got a slight knock back on this.

I then had another conversation with her about our working relationship yesterday and got told:

• I don't do small talk, not about my earrings etc - how am I supposed to know that?!
• I'm not a girly girl, accused me of treating her differently as a woman but turned out that she's worked abroad in Foreign Office in places like Afghanistan etc she's been treated badly as a woman. How on earth am I supposed to know this?! I was not aware she was such a feminist and also that I'd treated her differently as a woman as I hadn't thought this.
• She's a bit prickly generally and this emerged more during our catch up.
• This place though is typically central gov - quite woke and our Race Equality Network learnings we had last week but also covered sex as well as race.

Honestly after our chat yesterday I'm now going to be polite but not friendly and also thank god my contract ends at the end of March. I'm also going to consider applying for a permanent job there too, as this is being encouraged and on the cards.