To have been told off by HR for this?

[Mhassy]

I asked a member of the HR team if they had children, in the context of discussing a flexible working request. This was in the small talk/intro part of the conversation, it wasn’t said to make a point or anything, or to bolster my request for flexible working. It was literally a polite back and forth before the actual meeting began, she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty and I just asked - I thought politely! - if she had children. She told me she didn’t and the time had passed for her to now. We then moved onto the meeting itself.

Anyway, a day later I have a called from someone high up in HR to say I shouldn’t ask people if they have children and this is not an appropriate question in the workplace.

I do get that pregnancy etc can be a sensitive topic. I lost a baby a few years ago and it was and incredibly painful time at work and I felt triggered by any small talk about babies. However I would never have made an issue and I didn’t make an issue when the topic was raised.

AIBU to think this is a step too far to be policing this sort of conversation? I am recently a single parent and wouldn’t launch into being offended if I was asked if I had a partner? Where does it end? I was only making conversation!

By the time I've processed the question, tried to recall the events that actually happened that I'm being asked to describe, tried to decide whether the asker is someone I can trust with the truth, tried to decide whether I can get away with the lie, and tried to decide what lie to tell, so much time has passed that it is obvious to the asker that I am struggling with the question. Body-wise and facially, I have frozen in what's been described by colleagues who, to my knowledge, have yet to betray me as "looking like a rabbit caught in headlights".

Learned stock responses have been used against me and I know that I cannot reliably predict the circumstances under which that will happen. The easiest approach is to have one learned response: "I prefer to keep that private".

The immediate people I work with and line management to head of section know of my diagnosis so make allowances. Most of them are also not small talkers and are glad not to have to engage in it (think Big Bang Theory and IT Crowd, rather than Mad Men or The Office).

I do think there's a big difference between acting like your colleagues secretly hate you to remembering they're not your friends (yet.)

Not really. The outcome is the same. You will be more cautious about what you discuss and what questions you ask. You won't voice certain opinions because they might get you into trouble. You won't trust them with private information because it could be used against you/gossiped about. A lot of these workplace-related threads are really about boundaries. Someone has crossed them somewhere.

Beyond ridiculous - you were asking a perfectly normal question. I’ve asked colleagues if they have children, are married, have a partner (not interrogating, just a simple question). Its nice to know a few (basic) details about the people you spend a large part of the week with. Im guessing this particular person is highly sensitive about the subject but she still needs to be professional in her job and this was taken way too far.

God this thread is making me so glad that my current team are nice, reasonable people. I won’t be leaving anytime soon that’s for sure.

In my experience, in a conversation about children (or in this case the reason why a flexible working arrangement is being requested) if someone has them, then they mention it at some point in that conversation.

I a, infertile due to cancer treatment and often get questioned if I have children and then when I say no..I get asked why. I happen not to care now so mention it's because I couldn't. That then leads to another why, or lots of roundabout questions or comments up because people with children want to know why we are defective. And yes, they still see us as defective.

But I don't want to talk about my cancer experience. I don't want to mention that chemo made me infertile. I don't want to discuss why I didn't freeze eggs etc. It's best not to ask if someone has kids because if the answer is no, then there will be complex reasons, even if it's just I don't like children, which are personal and private.

@HollyKnight okay, I suppose we work in very different environments then which is understandable - I need to collaborate with my colleagues and that invokes a certain level of trust and rapport (so I couldn't work effectively if I assumed they were recording me to report later, for example.)

Noideawwhatsoccuring · Today 20:38

Given that women’s careers are often damaged by having children, or talking about them too much it’s not an appropriate work place conversation.

Rubbish. I've always talked to male colleagues about their children just as much as female colleagues. Particularly if they were similar ages to mine. Don't make this into something that it's not.

@MajorCleven you don't have to literally imagine that is what they are doing. Maybe you think to yourself "is this appropriate?" before you say or do something, or maybe you just naturally know what is appropriate. But some people need to take a moment to process situations. I know the PP is ND, as am I, so I understand the aversion to lying, and the automatically-answering-honestly thing and then regretting it after when I realise honesty wasn't what was expected in that moment. So it helps to have a "rule" in our heads with how to deal with workplace situations to keep safe. A lot of NT would be wise to do the same.

I need to collaborate with mine too. They are not my friends and I know that one outright hates me and is very good at hiding it bar his emailed disclosure and the occasional comment I've overheard him saying about me to others when he thinks I'm out of earshot. I still need to collaborate with them, even him. It's called "being professional". What I've described and been branded "extreme and paranoid" for is what @HollyKnight has described as "boundaries" combined with having the ability to set aside that someone backstabbed you for three years enough to work with them anyway whilst watching the bastard like a hawk in case he tries it again.

I think that a lot of people get hurt by this "bring your authentic self to work" and "corporate family" thinking that is fashionable these days. These people are not your friends and you can end up working with awful people just as you did at school. People-wise, the workplace is an improvement over school in one respect only: you can move to another workplace without having to ask your parents to make it happen.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · Today 21:00

MajorCleven · Today 20:54

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia hang on - are you saying people can't ask other people if they had a nice Christmas in case they didn't?
I'm saying that it's ill-advised, given that Christmas is known for escalation of DV.

I can't believe that, on a parenting website with a Relationships forum full of women helping each other identify abuse and leave abusers, I have to spell this out.

OMG I can't believe this - the world has actually gone mad!!!

Asking if you had a good Christmas has to be up there with the most fucking banal questions of all time!! The person asking doesn't actually care what your Christmas was like!! It's just a social offhand piece of communication.

Most people just say, "ah it was quiet". End of.

Ah you are the whole work force?

where was I turning this into something it’s not?

Why are you quoting a small snippet? Rather than the whole context. or the post I was replying too?

A poster said ‘asking about children is fine’ I pointed it out why talking about a woman’s children is not fine in an environment where non work conversations are deemed offensive. In the specific circumstance the previous posts were discussing.

and actually, women are more likely to be quizzed about their children or family in work place.

I actually think it’s ok to have that conversation. But if HR is setting the scene that ops question was not appropriate for a work environment, so is asking about someone’s children. Especially a woman’s children.

Or are we just going to pretend that in general women don’t suffer in their careers for having kids just cause you also ask men about their kids?

Let’s not take small parts of a post and make it into something it’s not.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · Today 21:07

I would expect a higher awareness than I'm seeing of why Christmas is a traumatic hellscape for a lot of women.

You are being utterly unreasonable. Christmas is not a "traumatic landscape" for the majority of women. Or men, since you seem to be ignoring male DV.

@Noideawwhatsoccuring Why are you quoting a small snippet? Rather than the whole context. or the post I was replying too?

A poster said ‘asking about children is fine’ I pointed it out why talking about a woman’s children is not fine in an environment where non work conversations are deemed offensive. In the specific circumstance the previous posts were discussing.

I quoted the part I wanted to comment on. I will do that if I wish.

In my experience in the workplace, men talk about their children the same as women do. I know my DH has related many funnies in work relating to our children. I don't know why you are making an issue of this. It's not been my experience, so please don't diss my nearly 40 years in the workplace!!

TG where I've worked, people do talk about their personal lives freely and you know what, nobody has ever taken offence. Non-work related conversations have never been offensive. I think that's pretty damn normal!!

It's probably easier to leave it now. But I would be tempted to say she raised the topic!! You wouldn't have asked if she hadn't asked after your children..

I once had exactly the same situation, a colleague asked about my kids and when I'd spoken about mine I asked if she had any and she abruptly said No and glared at me.

I have a colleague for whom children never happened, it is a source of sadness for her. She knows I have a child so asks, I respond.

I am not one to wax lyrical about the wonders of motherhood but if I am directly asked about my child, I’ll answer. I don’t go on about it because my work keeps me busy enough.

The person asking doesn't actually care what your Christmas was like!! It's just a social offhand piece of communication.

If the question doesn't matter, and the answer doesn't matter:

1. Communication is the transfer of information from one person to another. What information is actually conveyed in this interaction? It's not actually communication, is it, it's noise.

2. Why worsen the office signal-to-noise ratio by asking and expecting an answer?

Let's be honest here: amongst colleagues, this isn't genuine care for someone's wellbeing the way it would be if you were asking a friend. At work, it's virtue-signalling faux concern about someone who you don't care much about. Once you realise this, it becomes obvious that it's about the asker feeling good because "they bothered to ask". I object strongly to this kind of faux concern and find it very patronising. I'm not a supporting actor in the drama of anyone's life and I don't exist so that colleagues can pat themself on the back whilst pretending to care about me.

Completely agree with this.
And I cannot put up with the double standards of HR.

OP, it sounds to me like a normal polite conversation. I would be quite shocked with this. Very OTT from Sr Management.

TF I am not far off retirement!

I couldn't deal with a workplace like some of you expect. I'm not friends with colleagues - I learned that many years ago - but omg we're not automatons and inevitably, in a normal working relationship, you do divulge some aspects of your life outside work. It's weird not to!

Well yes, I do think to myself if this appropriate before saying things. Because they are my colleagues and I don't treat them as friends. However I don't assume they hate me and are recording me (which is what was said in the post you said you agreed with.) It sounds like actually we are broadly in agreement from your latest post.

@HollyKnight just to remind you the post that you said you 'kind of' agreed with said this:

MNMafia
At work? Don't have non-work conversations. Don't talk to anyone unless you have to. Act like the person you are talking to secretly hates you and is recording everything you say to be reported to someone higher who also hates you.

I suppose the kind of bit excluded the recording bit? But please don't imply I've taken something literally erroneously when you've literally agreed with it.

OP HR are not your friend,

The main purpose of them is to try and prevent the company getting sued they are employed by the company.

Don't converse with them unless you need to. Honestly this is game we play now.

Somewhere along the way, many people have decided that the world owes it to them that they should never feel awkward or uncomfortable or sad or annoyed by anyone else, and if they do, it's some sort of microaggression or thoughtcrime, etc. that must be dealt with swiftly and sternly. I'm all for people behaving themselves and not being intentionally rude or hurtful to their colleagues, but it's sad when an innocent question as part of a conversation is almost intentionally misconstrued and reported.

Everyone seems to think they're the centre of the universe these days, and sadly they lack the resiliency to just dust themselves off and get on with things when someone accidentally says the wrong thing.

It's traumatic enough for enough people. I may have only mentioned women but I didn't claim at any point that men cannot be victims and wouldn't claim that. My point is that asking the question is like betting on not drawing the jack of clubs and then repeatedly drawing cards from a deck: you may get away with it for a long time but sooner or later you will draw that card and lose. The smart option is not to place the wager in the first place.

Or should I have not asked my line manager to stop my team from making repeated jokes about the rape alarm they found when clearing a storeroom? After all, "only" a minority of women have been raped and they couldn't possibly have known that I am one of them and would find the repeated use of the word "rape" to be very unpleasant.

Sounds fucking ridiculous. That would put me off working there