To have been told off by HR for this?

[Mhassy]

I asked a member of the HR team if they had children, in the context of discussing a flexible working request. This was in the small talk/intro part of the conversation, it wasn’t said to make a point or anything, or to bolster my request for flexible working. It was literally a polite back and forth before the actual meeting began, she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty and I just asked - I thought politely! - if she had children. She told me she didn’t and the time had passed for her to now. We then moved onto the meeting itself.

Anyway, a day later I have a called from someone high up in HR to say I shouldn’t ask people if they have children and this is not an appropriate question in the workplace.

I do get that pregnancy etc can be a sensitive topic. I lost a baby a few years ago and it was and incredibly painful time at work and I felt triggered by any small talk about babies. However I would never have made an issue and I didn’t make an issue when the topic was raised.

AIBU to think this is a step too far to be policing this sort of conversation? I am recently a single parent and wouldn’t launch into being offended if I was asked if I had a partner? Where does it end? I was only making conversation!

You don't need to assume that. That is just the method @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia has developed for herself, based on her past experience, to enable her to keep safe while navigating the workplace. And all people have done is mock and criticise her for sharing what works for her because it isn't "normal" from their point of view.

you're a grown woman and you frequent mumsnet. How can you NOT know that (especially in the workplace) that you never ever ask "do you have children".

@HollyKnight I haven't mocked or criticised anyone. I've disagreed with the premise of what they deem to be acceptable on the basis of the original post and in a work environment. They said it was unacceptable to ask if someone had a nice Christmas - I don't accept that is unacceptably in the workplace. Alongside many others.

Don’t apologise. If the conversation went as you said and you were chitchatting about baby stuff it was a reasonable part of the conversation. You didn't ask why not, say what a shame of any other potentially hurtful remark. If someone is so lacking in resilience they are offended by this simple question then moving on they need help not to ask for someone to be chastised for bugger all.

I'd assume the the person's mental health is so very poor if they were triggered by it enough to complain.

I clearly wouldn't last five minutes in a modern workplace. I greet people in a friendly way (a cheery 'Hello' is oppressive, obviously), ask intrusive questions ('Had a good weekend?') and make personal comments ('Love those boots/ new hairstyle'). Thank goodness I managed to fit in most of my working years in the old days, when people didn't go running to HR at every perceived slight. How does this fit with the 'bring your whole self to work' ethos? Is it 'bring your whole self to work as long as that doesn't upset anyone who's feeling a bit fragile for reasons that you couldn't have been expected to know'?

Seriously, this is such contradictory, controlling shit. No wonder people are choosing to wfh and opting out of employment.

Some people are just more cautious than others out of fear and empathy. I personally never ask anyone about their private lives and only discuss it if it is something they have brought up themselves. I probably wouldn't go so far as to not ask about holidays, but I can understand why someone who has been deeply hurt by people is so against hurting others.

I think HR has given away confidential information about the woman who complained she either can't have children or she has had a miscarriage. The HR department in your work place are useless. Do you need the job op I would have explained to them how they have broken confidentiality not to disclose other employees personal matters. Giving you training would have been more appropriate.

Quite!

Just to set out my stall:

It's not unacceptable (to the point of reporting to HR) to ask someone if they have children when they've proactively engaged you in conversation about your own child's development

It's not unacceptable (to the point of reporting to HR) to ask someone in a work environment if they had a nice Christmas

It's not unreasonable or indeed advisable to interact with your close colleagues on the basis that they are not gathering evidence or intending to report you to HR.

I’ve worked in two industries throughout my working life, both have lots of 20/30 somethings and as I’ve got older I’ve been asked…

Do I have children? Do I want children? Why don’t I have children? And I’ve been told I better hurry up if I want children.

I’ve also been asked if I’m married? Why aren’t I married? Do I want to get married?

And after getting pregnant in my 40’s I was asked all kinds of questions by colleagues I hardly knew! How did you get pregnant? Was it IVF? How did you manage it naturally? Did you follow ovulation signs? How long did you try for? Was there a particular position that worked? I was asked everything! But I didn’t mind. I worked with several women in their late 30’s/early 40’s ttc.

I said I kind of agree with it because the outcome is the right/safe/appropriate goal. Her method is different to mine, and to yours, but the result is the same is it not?

Who made that rule?

That is shite.

You can always go and speak to HR in confidence. They will not divulge what you have told them if you ask them not do.

I've done that loads of times.

@Hocuspocusnonsense how would you have felt being asked some of those questions if you’d never managed to conceive/had loads unsuccessful fertility treatment?

@Hocuspocusnonsense I wasn't quite grilled as much as that, but when I finally revealed at 5 months' pregnant that I was expecting a baby, a manager I barely knew stopped me in the corridor to ask, "Was it planned?"

I laughed!

Thank you for understanding that my outlook is a tool to keep me safe.

And thank you for recognising that it's unfair to mock and criticise and brand "extreme and paranoid" an autistic woman who:

• Is a rape victim who has had to face rape alarm jokes and the alarm being activated at work;
• Has a current colleague who hates her and sabotaged her work for three years after I encouraged him to apply for the position (he was agency at first);
• Has had management use rote learned "polite" answers against her to call her a liar and threaten her job because of what I now recognise was sensory overload and shutdown;
• Has been branded rude more times than I can count for basically existing whilst autistic;
• Has enough empathy to recognise that some questions are really hurtful for some people and cares enough to want to avoid upsetting someone at work, an environment that they can't just leave because they have to stay until shift end;
• Has created strict boundaries and rules about my own behaviour (not other people's) to protect myself from falling foul of the hellscape of expectation traps that neurotypical people call "normal workplace social interaction";
• Tries to explain and share those rules in the hope that they might help the OP who has fallen foul of an expectation trap.

And then people wonder why so few autistic people manage to have jobs...

The HR person did not ask the OP if she has children. The OP volunteered that information herself. One person volunteering personal information about herself does not obligate the other person to reveal personal information in return. And if that information isn't given freely, you do not ask for it.

Did I actually say "unacceptable" or did I say something like "bad idea"?

Please wait whilst I re-read my own posts.

It's not offensive to ask if someone has kids. When I had my first child people used to ask constantly if my mum lived close by.

My mum died when I was 9. It hurt being asked. At no point did I think it was an unreasonable question.

Anyone on a senior position has had that, it's outrageous. I was asked in an interview when five months pregnant! (I did get the job.)

KimberleyClark. I never felt any of the questioning was being asked with malice. I could see it was young women working out their own life choices and asking an ‘older’ woman about her life choices. I left a very long term relationship in my mid 30’s and didn’t have my first child until I was 42 so I did have a few years where I thought I probably wouldn’t have children. I also lost one at 40.

I think that's pretty much it

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia no you said it was ill-advised but gave a (hypothetical?) emotive example of why. So I should have said ill-advised to be verbatim, I just processed and summarised it as 'unacceptable' because that was the vibe I got from your posts.

What I said was: "Seriously, don't put a DV victim in a position where she has to choose between lying and disclosure."

When I say on a Relationships thread "LTB", am I saying that it is "unacceptable" for the OP of that thread to stay with their partner, or am I using the imperative form of the verb "leave" to advise the OP to leave their partner?