Does the UK begrudge success?

[Viohh]

Just interested in having a conversation really.

My parents were children of Indian (Sikh) immigrants who worked in factories then eventually owned shops. My own parents themselves forgave holidays, nice clothes etc to send their kids to private schools (also corner shop owners). As a family of 5 we lived in a 2 bed flat until I was 16. We did go to private school. I remember the envy I felt of classmates’ houses when we went on play dates. I always went to after school club. Often the last to be picked up.

Fast forward, I’m now a consultant at a big 4 firm. One brother is a pilot and the other is a doctor. Many assume I come from privilege and only the super rich can send children to private schools. The way I was raised has left a lot of psychological damage which current society almost dismisses.

Just wondering if anyone has gone through similar hardships which now is retrospectively being dressed up as ‘privilege’ in modern society.

Talk about not 'take'

Just because someone went to a private school doesn’t make them privileged. Only child of a friend I know who attended lived in appalling living conditions. He’s 40 now and my god yes this has affected his whole life. Just because you went to private school OP doesn’t make you privileged and anyone who blindly thinks it does needs to give their head a wobble

No, as long as their success wasn't brought about by the exploitation of others. For example a rich company boss paying the lowest wage they legally have to

@candyisdandybutliquorisquicker wow, what a great story. Well done, you must be a great inspiration and role model to your kids.

Yep, I know where you are coming from. I am an immigrant from a former communist eastern block country, came to UK when I was 20 with just $100. Got a job in a hotel as a chambermaid, lived in a rented room and studied for a professional qualification in the evenings/ weekends. Used Holidays to study and sit exams, for 4 years in a row ! Got a job in the profession I studied for, advanced in my career.
Had DS, went back to work when he was 8 months, worked hard, got promoted and now I am doing very well in said career. I am managing a team.
Sent DS to private school . I am not rich at all but comfortable.
Yes, sadly I have come across resentment and bitterness regarding the private school choice . But I do have thick skin. I worked super hard to get here, no help from parents, state, anybody and this is how I choose to spend my money. At least my son can have an easier ride .
I wish people who like to preach can live in a former communist country for a few months.
I am forever grateful to UK for the opportunity to progress and become who I am, the opportunity is there, you just need to grab it with both hands.

The unambitious begrudge success. Unfortunately there are many unambitious people in the UK

Yes and particularly Mumsnet Tera hate successful people. How dare people earn six figures etc etc. so much jealousy. We should be encouraging higher pay not dragging people down. If someone has worked hard to get into that kind of role and you havent, it's not their fault is if love...

Mumsnetters*

I haven't fulfilled my potential but I'm mostly happy with my achievements, with the odd pang when I see people more ambitious people celebrate big wins in their careers.

However, what does annoy me is to the extent we are expected to celebrate the winners. Maybe this is specific to my company, but we are expected to know about them and be pleased for the big hitters. I make all the right noises but I always do think why is this relevant to me, just let me do my job.

My own parents themselves forgave holidays, nice clothes etc to send their kids to private schools

Totally mising the point of this thread, but the past tense of forego is forewent and not forgave. The past participle is foregone.

I'll get my coat. Sorry.

How do you define ambition? If your ambition (for want of a better word) is to be a medic, you work hard to do so but the salary has stagnated for the last 13 years, how is this lack of financial achievement your fault? Do we not need medical staff, teachers, Architects, engineers, retail workers, hospitality staff etc. As jobs that don't traditionally have a six figure salary associated with them appear not to be of any value to you?

Maybe because of these winners the company is successful and everyone benefits indirectly by having a job at the end of the day.

Everyone has a job by their own efforts. Our company needs everyone to perform well, so having jobs isn't down to a few winners but collective effort.

What I'm referring to is a few individuals pushing people to celebrate some people we dont know very well.

I don't think people begrudge success as much as get annoyed by some of the attitudes prevalent amongst the successful. Typically we hear a great deal more about their hard work and sacrifice than we do about the good fortune that will inevitably have played a major part in that. Very few successful people have got there without some advantage or good luck, yet there is a stubborn refusal to acknowledge it, which is unfair to the countless people who also work hard and make sacrifices but don't enjoy the same success. For every bootstrap millionaire you will get millions of poor people who remain trapped in their poverty. I don't begrudge the success of the one in a million, but do get irritated by the fiction it's there for the taking if you just work hard enough and make wise choices.

The trouble with these threads on MN is that those who are wealthy really want to believe it is their choices, their intelligence, their hard work that has afforded them their wealth, they always circumvent the stated facts and data that wholly disprove that premise.

If you want higher wages for everyone, how the hell do you expect to achieve that if you disregard the history, the 'wealth' advantage derived from corporate welfare. Stop stating emotionally driven platitudes ans acknowledge the facts. Personally, our combined income is close to 6 figures so It is more rubbish spouted about envy and jealousy they is impossible to read. The system is fucking rigged just admit it? Why can't you admit it and then we would get somewhere with your higher wages for everyone desires!

I live in the US; my house (still mortgaged) has appreciated but not at UK rates. We have retirement savings but the bulk of that is not passive appreciation.

If your definition of privilege means having an asset that appreciates in value, then everyone with a savings account is privileged. I don't agree with that definition.

As I said, do I think my kids are privileged? Absolutely. My husband and I? No. Decades of 65 hour weeks of work and study. Though of course, if you want to opine about luck I'd quote Samuel Goldwyn: "The harder I work, the luckier I get."

As is typical with these comments, nobody ever comes back to elaborate on their lies!

Thank you. My kids have had it drummed into them that they need to work hard for everything they want.

I think my council estate was a shock to them, to be honest.

'Decades' so how old are you?

So what 65hrs? My DH is more than that I don't seem him Monday to Friday, sometimes Sunday -Friday due to the work he puts in. We had our first DC when he was still qualifying to be an Architect, so working in the day, studying at night and the weekend. I have a Masters degree, I have further qualifications that I studied for in Privacy/info sec field but due to our age we had tution fees to pay off, no windfall in house prices for us and not even enough rooms to hoise our children at first. We are still the lucky ones! However, hard work does not equate to wealth, it just doesn't.

I accept that I was lucky to have gone to university at a time when there were no tuition fees. I'd have been drowning in debt otherwise. As it was a took a "gap" year and worked two jobs to save up (no digging wells in Africa for me.)

Thats another area where privilege/luck plays a part. Did you see the thread recently where a parent asked if £500 a month was enough to give their student child (in addition to paying his rent 😮)? My parents dropped me off at halls and my Dad gave me £20. That was the extent of their financial contribution to my high education. My student loan covered my rent but that was it. I was on my own for the rest. I had a PT job lined up in my university town before I even moved there. Worked FT every summer. In my gap year in Europe I taught English. I've never not worked.

If you want to think of me as lucky, knock yourself out.

I imagine you will get some shit for that as any reference to SAPG usually ends in people being called cunts, but I thank you as I was turning it over in my head trying to work out what was wrong.

I'm in my late 40s, my husband is late 50s.

Having no tuition fees was definitely good fortune for me (see my latest post) but on the flip side, I also had no parental contribution save the twenty quid my Dad gave me when he dropped me off.

It depends. Personally I like to see people who do well, I don’t even mind a bragger. People should have the space to feel proud of themselves and their circle when someone has achieved, and this is irrespective of their background. Privilege doesn’t mean that somebody hasn’t earned their success.

That being said, I take a major issue with how this world disadvantages some people.
So I have a problem with people who have not experienced poverty or discrimination belittling struggles that they will never face. I also have a problem with those who have achieved in spite of difficulties, pretending they are not the exception, or even sometimes the recipient of helping hand. When either of these behaviours is combined with a willingness to kick away the ladder for others…

So just a note to read all of what I write before responding, below is my Dad's unvarnished view of from a long time ago and not something he feels at all now.

I recall my Dad telling me that he did feel angry in the 1980s when he was really struggling financially to see recent immigrants driving about in flash cars with the narrative that they had recently come to the UK, started up with nothing and made their fortune through hard work alone in a few short years. It just didn't make sense to him as he worked hard, was intelligent and made loads of sacrifices as did my mum to make a better life for themselves and their kids and financial success was difficult to come by. He was from a very poor working class background and said he would look at these suddenly wealthy immigrants and think, my ancestors built this country, fought in two world wars to protect it and yet I can't get ahead no matter how hard I work.

My Dad didn't have it in him to hate anyone and I think in time he did manage to become successful in his business, he also learned that not everyone who came to the UK arrived poor and that many immigrants did struggle same as him.

I think it does illustrate though how these feelings can be leveraged by bad actors in society to create more division and resentment. I also think its interesting from the opposite angle in that often people who do succeed see it all as their own hard work and fully deserved on their own merits and that if other people struggle or don't do as well that is their own fault as opposed to acknowledging the good fortune and privileges they may have had.

I always admire my Dad for being open to me about his feelings at that time and how he out grew them over time.

The UK is a highly stratified society where even making it financially through work and money grants you proper access to the next class up, opportunities are still limited here and life can be very hard for the large cohort working poor it makes sense that people are directed to resent immigrants for example as it draws attention away from those actually in power and from the kind of fights that would actually make things fairer for all.

I’m actually surprised at your experience. I’m not saying this to invalidate it because I believe you. In my experience half of the private school girls that I knew, had similar backgrounds to you. I met them because once they hit sixth form they transferred to the local grammars. There were of course immigrant girls who had wealthy parents but at the time I wouldn’t have thought it was a majority. There are quite a few threads on here of Mums who are really sacrificing to do this for their children.