Does the UK begrudge success?

[Viohh]

Just interested in having a conversation really.

My parents were children of Indian (Sikh) immigrants who worked in factories then eventually owned shops. My own parents themselves forgave holidays, nice clothes etc to send their kids to private schools (also corner shop owners). As a family of 5 we lived in a 2 bed flat until I was 16. We did go to private school. I remember the envy I felt of classmates’ houses when we went on play dates. I always went to after school club. Often the last to be picked up.

Fast forward, I’m now a consultant at a big 4 firm. One brother is a pilot and the other is a doctor. Many assume I come from privilege and only the super rich can send children to private schools. The way I was raised has left a lot of psychological damage which current society almost dismisses.

Just wondering if anyone has gone through similar hardships which now is retrospectively being dressed up as ‘privilege’ in modern society.

Blimey some right 'Thatchers children' on here- us more mature posters will know what I mean. I think many people need to actually experience some shit in life to get them off their high horse- like the poor poster on another thread who has found her H has gambled all their savings and also got £130k debt. Life isn't always linear- people who often work really hard can lose it in a jiffy- covid showed that, you couldn't really predict or insure for that. Husbands and wives can leave, chronic illness can rear its head. Not everyone doing very nicely thank you is there by pure 'hard work' - just as not all people struggling are feckless lazy bastards.

It is very hard for those not from the same background to understand, but I married a second-generation immigrant from a fairly similar background and I get it.

What several people on this thread are overlooking is the additional stress of also being of a minority ethnicity in spaces like private education, universities or the professions, which are largely dominated by middle class white people.

My DH is now a very high earner and these days we must look as if we have always lived the dream, but it really isn’t the case.

Nor will he ever, ever stop striving.

The fact that most of our wealth, and land, is in the hands of the same families gifted it in 1066 is a pretty good indicator of where some resentment might come from.

This is absolutely crucial I think and not focusing on it is one of the most damaging aspects about all of the "I am less privileged than you" hierarchy of victimhood that identity politics has brought about.

In a capitalist society, money = power. In a capitalist society where currency has been downgraded (via quantitative easing etc) assets= money + even more money than anyone can earn. And then, power and further power.

Focusing on who owns what and how they got it is not distasteful or unseemly - it's necessary. The people who have skewed the levers to benefit themselves would like us all to think that doing so is envy or resentment or some such thing - anything other than have us asking questions.

@Crikeyalmighty - in south Asian - Indian/ Pakistani/ Bengali culture yes there is the expectation that if your son does well financially he will look after his parents. Often parents will live with their sons.
My parents live with and are financially dependent on their son but have never taken a penny from their daughters, they've paid for our education and weddings as is the cultural expectation, but would not even allow me to pay for their lunch now.

They paid for their daughter's education so we would have financial independence from our husbands .

But it just isn’t true that most of the wealth in the UK is “in the hands of those gifted it in 1066”. The five richest families in the UK are all either immigrants or started from nothing (Hinduja’s, Jim Ratcliffe, Blavatniks and Reubens). There’s not toff in the top 10 although the Duke of Westminster is no. 11. In the top 60 there are only 2 landed gentry family (including the Duke of Westminster).

I dont begrudge success but i am a bit nervous about the idea that some individuals being succesful from difficult circumstances means all individuals from difficult circumstances can replicate that success -particularly by just working hard. The thought that often follows that idea, is that we can just not help people at the bottom, theres no need to pay people a decent salary as they could just live a bit overcrowded and then their grandkids can get great jobs.

@Spendonsend this is also a criticism of the Paralympics, some feel that it implies that anyone can potentially overcome a disability with the right attitude. But do people really think like this? There are plenty of people born with every single privelege in life who end up as monumental failures after all.

Personally I do think it’s right to reserve a special kind of admiration for those who manage to overcome terrible adversity but at the same time have I nothing but sympathy / empathy for those who don’t or can’t.

There are some who are undoubtedly born into giant privolidge eg the royals etc . Unimaginable wealth and opwning of doors, smoothing of paths.

However sadly the aspiration to strivers are being targeted by those too ignorant to see nuance. Consequently the UK is increasingly full of woke-ist who want the lifestyle without having to do any hard work.

When it doesn't come to them they take out their envy on those who have made it, hiding behind catcalls of "privilege ", as it makes them feel better about their decision not to go the hard yards to improve their circumstances

How disingenuous, referencing the five richest families in the UK doesn't change the fact that third of the land in England and Wales remains in the hands of the aristocracy. The worth of a hereditary title has nearly doubled since the 2007 financial crisis, now standing at more than £16m, much of this has been on a rapid incline over the last 40 years- financial deregulation of the 80s afforded many opportunities for investing and asset management. This is the inescapable truth and knowing the exploitation and hardships that many endured to facilitate this hereditary wealth, does go some way to explaining the resentment, many of us will have relatives that facilitated this lifestyle, my Great, Great Gran for example, was a maid at 14, living away from home in one of these stately homes, day in, day out faciltating the lifestyles of those with hereditary wealth. Much of Britain's land is owned by these families, it is private property that we cannot use or walk upon without permission. Yes, the 40 years post second WW went far in levelling up wealth but the economic and political structures that fuelled those changes were on the decline from the 1980s and we are now returning to the Victorian era of inequality.

Even when you look at broader patterns of wealth, in this country wealth begets wealth particularly over the last 40 years, the self made has lots of safety nets in place that have all made that possible. In the UK, in 2024, it is a pretence that 'success' in terms of wealth, is a manifestation of wholly hard work and risk taking, it simply isn't, so yes, I think people do resent the selling of this mythical notion!

I hear you OP. I grew up financially secure and went to private school but I was not the only miserable child there with parents who didn’t give a shit about them.

I accept and am grateful for the privilege that I had, but I resent that people who grew up with less financial security but with much more love and emotional security can’t seem to do the same. Having a secure family that loves you provides much more advantage than private school does, but people fail to recognise that and assume that the private school kid automatically had a good childhood when it’s just not true.

I do admire people who have got out of adversity or achieved great things.

But i do believe there are lots of peoole who would base policy on the fact some can, therefore all could, therefore its your own fault if you cant.

Im a bit sensitive about disability as my son has asd which in his case is a disability and there is quite a strong movement to rebrand it a difference and I get lots of people telling me things like elon musk has aspergers so my son could do x, y, z

But also lots of people like you who have compassion too so cant imagine others arent so nice. But having my son opened my eyes to the others.

Where to begin.....see above this is simply untrue and the statistics on wealth do not bear this out! The idea that those complaining are not prepared to work hard is a nonsense and as mythical as Unicorn! Income is not wealth and it is near on impossible to acquire if you don't already have it. In my personal circumstances we are lucky to have a good enough income but despite my DH being a Director in a London Architecture firm, me working in Privacy/data protection, we have a small 2 bed house with one reception room. Luckily being an Architect he could redesign the garage and convert it into a third bedroom much needed as we have two DC! It has a 2 foot by 10 ft yard, no garden. In contrast my parents, one an Economist, the other a teacher (but she wasn't working when they bought the family home) could, through hard work via income, not inherited wealth as their parents were working class, could buy a detached house in South West London! On of our holidays was going around the U.S for 6 weeks, staying in some of the best hotels in the states. Stop peddling the myth that envy and lack of hard work is at the heart of this, it isn't, it's corporate welfare and pure economics!

It’s not disingenuous. It’s factual. It just doesn’t fit in with your ‘everything is the landed gentry’s fault’ narrative. This is precisely the attitude that leads to the leg pulling that OP started the thread about. It’s not 1850 anymore, move on. Immigrants have come along and made mega rich in this country. While the indigenous moaners sit around waiting to get a piece of land.

More relevant to OP, there are lots of children in private schools who are not privileged in other ways. Through my work i know of several children in private school who have Children in Need Plans due to donestic violence, parental mental health, sexual abuse etc. There are special safeguarding courses on spotting issues in wealthy areas as you are less likely to get signs of neglect like inappropriate clothes or malnourishment. State and private schools go along to these.

YABU, your parents struggled to give you the best of everything. Be more grateful?

If you are unable to provide counter arguements it would be better to just not reply than waste everyone's time with more of your drivel.

What is factual? The Times rich list and five families? A poster pointed out the relevance of the Landed gentry in relation to this attitude and your platitudes are not born out by statistical facts for this country. Nice for you to dismiss others stories of exploitation as irrelevant but you just come across as crass and that you have no intellectual insight on the situation today.

Your proposition that 'land' is up for grabs if only people would imitate such exploitation and celebrate such inequalities is not exactly a progressive method by which to acquire wealth! Is that the way people would like the political and economic systems to be organised in this country - I think you'll find that it has not be a resounding success over the last 40 years and that a majority do not want this.

@Goldenbear You are conflating wealth with land ownership. Of the 10 wealthiest land owners in the UK only one is a member of the Aristocracy. Yes people like the Duke of Buccleuh have huge acreages but this is mainly in Scotland where land is not especially valuable (in relative terms) and has few alternative uses.

The UK has an incredible network of public footpaths across private land unlike many countries which have virtually none. People often talk about how some Scandinavian counties have a “right to roam” but this is generally limited to land which is unfenced and without crops or livestock.

Out of interest do you resent not having access to all private property or just that owned by the Aristocracy? I’m not aware of any difference in public access to estates owned by toffs versus that owned by self made people.

Yes they do. I know what you’re saying. Background of abuse (people have gone to prison), homelessness, I dropped out of education at 1st as I was flung out by my abusive parents. Social services didn’t want to know back then.

I worked hard, pulled myself up and went back to uni whilst working full time. I also have disabled children.

We are now in the top 1% of household incomes PAYE wise. My so called life of privilege is probably full of more ACEs than most…

Yet it must all be made up or we secretly went to private school. I didn’t actually go to school most of the time tbh. There are options out there to do better. Depends if you take them or not.

Again disingenuous, as well you probably know as I am doing no such thing, I am referencing a point another poster made about the sentiment about success being resented in the UK having roots in land ownership and the aristocracy. In the much wider context of Wealth and wealth inequality, despite the aristocracy becoming 'poorer' they have still benefitted hugely, like all wealthy people from the financial deregulation of the 80s, tax cuts, tax loopholes, corporate welfare brought about by political decisions, to say otherwise is propaganda by the wealthy and not born out by statistical data.

The roots of the UK’s resentment and bitterness towards success may well lie in the land ownership by the aristocracy but it’s hard to see how this has been a relevant factor since the end of the Second World War.

So are you suggesting that being a top 1 household income is the target then, so we only work hard by definition if you are earning masses amount of money? Is our value intrinsically linked with wealth, What about the wealth of those that work really hard in the NHS, we need Doctors, we need Nurses or firemen and women, Engineers, Architects, we need loads of workers to deliver services who are usually only on minimum wages, is wage stagnation, unaffordable housing 'acceptable' because you made it to the 1 percent? Many people have become wealthy over the last 40 years but not via income or hard work, via windfalls on housing, pensions, being in a certain age demographic so really just pure luck, nothing to do with hard work and the corresponding income from grafting and risk taking.

I'm not sure if you are deliberately missing my point but I'll outline again the fact that historical roots are relevant. Regardless of being wealthy because you are or aren't part of the aristocracy your wealth has only seen a massive incline over the last 40 years, that is not a coincidence, it is due to the political and economical measures put in place. The neo-liberal politics of the 80s was the beginning of the end of the wealth equality that was the best it has ever been post second world war Britain and for the 40 years following the war where a strong correlation between income and working hard did exist.

Right, so historical land ownership is pretty much irrelevant to the widening in inequality which has taken place over the past 45 years or so.

All this.

The 'begrudge success' narrative is far more prevalent in consumerist, exploitation-based economies where there is a widening equality gap. Partly because people are resentful about the gap, and partly because it's absolutely in the interests of those who benefit to draw attention away from the gap by any means possible.

You don't hear either the resentment or the whining-about-the-resentment in for eg the Northern European countries.