Does the UK begrudge success?

[Viohh]

Just interested in having a conversation really.

My parents were children of Indian (Sikh) immigrants who worked in factories then eventually owned shops. My own parents themselves forgave holidays, nice clothes etc to send their kids to private schools (also corner shop owners). As a family of 5 we lived in a 2 bed flat until I was 16. We did go to private school. I remember the envy I felt of classmates’ houses when we went on play dates. I always went to after school club. Often the last to be picked up.

Fast forward, I’m now a consultant at a big 4 firm. One brother is a pilot and the other is a doctor. Many assume I come from privilege and only the super rich can send children to private schools. The way I was raised has left a lot of psychological damage which current society almost dismisses.

Just wondering if anyone has gone through similar hardships which now is retrospectively being dressed up as ‘privilege’ in modern society.

This mentality has completely manifested itself in this society now. Begrudging high earners and at the same time living on their dime. More than 50% of people in this country and are net takers, while the number of net contributors is plummeting. Then squealing about there not being enough freebies. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Gun, foot, clean shot.

No I don’t think the UK begrudges success. Only bragging. We are not keen on that. We do love an underdog success story too.

I would however question the definition of success. I’d ask whether a traumatic childhood that lead to damaged mental health in adulthood should be classed as success, no matter the end salary earned.

Once heard a man say that true success is if your adult children choose and want to spend time with you. So I’d say one man’s success does not match another’s.

@Parkrunprom ,

No, bonus caps were brought in to discourage excessive risk taking (along with deferred bonuses, claw backs etc)

If you are a trader in 100k basic and 10% bonus, you are personally incentivised to make 10 million one year then lose 8 the following year, far more than to make a steady one million a year.

And, on a bank wide scale, 2008 wasn’t really a tragedy for a lot of employees and bank boards, even if they lost billions. They walked into the sunset rich, while those on 50k plus had to pay an increased tax burden for years to come to bail out the mess left behind.

It is that kind of wealth, that comes at the expense of others, that is rightly resented.

Maybe op it'd be better to post this on south Asian MN? We have such a complex culture. Your parents would've raised you thinking they are doing their best. What the community thinks of them can be as important/ more important than your kids being happy. Love can be shown through food and keeping up with the joneses. The martyr complex is always present in some of our parents.

The thing is if everyone was a go-getter who improved themselves in life who would do the low paid jobs which are essential to the functioning of our society? I think part of the problem in the UK is that success is measured in material things, a big house, a fancy car, exotic holidays etc. Many people who have these things look down on those who don't ( as can quite often be seen on threads here) and think that they could have those things if only they tried harder.

I think also that the divide between the haves and have nots is becoming greater and even those who would have been relatively comfortable 20 or 30 years ago are struggling. They can't even buy a house or afford to have another child so I think that in that situation there can often be resentment of others who appear to have it all.

In terms of "privilege" I think, as other pps have said, you can have privilege in one part of your life while still having it tough in other areas.

The more equal a society is, in terms of opportunity and wealth, the happier and more cohesive it is. The UK is one of the most unequal developed countries and it's getting worse.

It's a simple fact that we don't all have the same opportunities, and even those who overcome their disadvantages compete with the privileged they're still disadvantaged. For example, if someone working-class ends up with the same degree, from the same University, they'll earn less.

The fact that most of our wealth, and land, is in the hands of the same families gifted it in 1066 is a pretty good indicator of where some resentment might come from.

@Viohh would you prefer lucky rather than privileged? It is through sheer luck that your parents were abusive AND focused on education, and you got the education you got, and probably the successful job. A lot of kids grow up in similar situations and have parents that don't give a crap about their education, some actively try to prevent their kids to better themselves etc.

I think the word privilege brings up a certain image , that of course doesn't match your abusive childhood. Just like for others, the words private school brings up a certain image that doesn't match your abusive childhood. So you're at opposite ends, each focusing on the image rather than the reality.

You were privileged/lucky to have parents that really cared about your education, even if it stops there. There will be envy, there will be people calling you privileged.

Just like a homeless person thinks anyone with a roof over their heads (no matter what horrors go under that roof ) is privileged.

Just like someone who can't afford food thinks someone else is privileged if they don't have to even think about their next meal.

Just like I think someone who grew up in a loving,supportive,stable and non abusive environment is privileged, even if we were quite well off and my parents also cared about education.

It's not a race to the bottom really, it's comparing battle scars.

@Viohh - I had a similar background. Parents were first generation immigrants from the Punjab, worked in factories, all of the children highly intelligent and won assisted places to private secondary schools - outcomes - Oxbridge, lawyers, doctors.

We are all traumatised by our childhood - our parents did their best for us and made enormous sacrifices, but we were poor, in addition to working our parents spare time was spent growing vegetables to feed us (vegetarian diet). There was no spare money - we were sent on school trips (educational), but if we were going for a week I needed to wash my clothes as I didn't own 7 pairs of knickers - my parents couldn't afford that.

The financial pressures they were under caused massive arguments that went on for days and we witnessed domestic violence. We were all emotionally abused. We all experienced racism.

We all have been left with massive mental health issues , low self esteem, anxiety, depression. We may have better exam results but our mental illnesses have held us back in our careers.

Also - it was different in the 1980s - ordinary people could pay private school fees if they chose.

My mummy friends think I must have been born with a silver spoon in my mouth due to the private school and Oxbridge and my profession. They have the freedom to not work due to generations of family wealth but don't recognise their privilege.

I don't think it's about begrudging success per se. It's about begrudging the inherent unfairness in our society that means certain privileged sections of it can get ahead on inherited wealth and nepotism while the rest of us have to kill ourselves working at 150% to get even anywhere near.

Pakistani Sikh waving hello.

Attending private school is a huge privilege, having a bad childhood doesn’t undo that. My husband attended a very well known boarding school, that was a huge privilege, his parents were shit, that doesn’t undo the privilege of his education. I spent some of my childhood in care, I also attended oxbridge, that still makes me privileged.

Bright children from comprehensive schools from generation x have not done as well as expected. Living standards in the UK have dropped and are now as bad if not worse than some developing countries. In these circumstances people are pulling out their own teeth with pliers and are living in damp overcrowded private rented housing . it would be surprising if people didn't bregrudge success. Largely they don't which is somewhat surprising.

I would say I'm similar, though went to state school, my mother was v well educated from India and pushed up hard and both children ended up at top unis. My parents bought property as each lost their jobs.

But I've experienced no backlash as a consequence. I'm very private about my life and so people don't see anything of me to think im priveliged.

I think I am , as I had amazingly loving parents and bought my house at 25 and am reasonably OK off.

Maybe op it'd be better to post this on south Asian MN?

^This. Some pp just won’t get it.

I’m a POC with a mixed background with Indian heritage.

Grew up working class on a Council estate. Both parents worked. DH has a similar background. We put ourselves through Uni. DH owns multiple businesses.

We’ve had to create our own wealth to pass down to future generations.

Understanding Colonialism is the key.

I went to school in a deprived area and the schools main function was to teach the kids just enough, so they could go on to work in the surrounding factories.
One of my classmates went on to be a Premier league star. I don't begrudge it in the slightest. Similarly, some of my other class mates have gone on to have success in other fields and I've done well in properties. If anything, I get a sense of pride when I see people from our cohort have done well for themselves. I've never begrudged success.
I think what you're describing would have people from my home town rolling their eyes. They too lived in small homes and never had holidays or much else, but they also went to a shit school and knew the best they could come out with would be a few GCSEs if they were lucky and very little prospects. Most of them are now too busy just surviving on low wages and getting from week to week, to begrudge the success of a medical consultant. I don't know how much sympathy they would have for your story of poverty either.

Talk about a poor grasp on basic economics! It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic at the same time.

In not 'on'.

@Alcyoneus and @Goldenbear ,

The idea that high earners are net contributors is just way too simplistic. It totally depends how the money is made.

Some of the highest earners are senior managers in betting companies. Sure they pay a lot of tax but all of the money they are paid is generated by others’ losses. So they might pay £450,000 on their £1,000,000 of income, but that income merely came from effectively taxing others £1,000,000, so they have not in fact made any positive contribution to the economy.

I think a lot of finance works this way. Banks sell unneeded products to individuals and companies and charge high fees to do so. Of course, the bankers pay massive tax, but at the expense of the businesses and people who now pay less tax as they have made a net loss on the products,

This is easier to see when you look at a gambling company than a bank, say, as a bank does also bundle up the useless parasitic stuff with some useful and necessary stuff, but there have been lots of academic studies (on M&A say) which show that it is net wealth destructive.

It is way too simplistic to say I get paid a lot, so I am helping society.

A majority of 'net takers' was always going to happen when society facilities wealth aggregating into fewer and fewer hands. We're now in a situation in the UK where the top 1% own more wealth than the bottom 70% (and around 26% of total wealth), so why would you expect there a more equal divide of contributions? If you want that you need to redistribute wealth so that more people can contribute to the system equally.

Also when you talk about 'net takers' you're only considers monetary contributions and not societal ones. As covid proved many 'net takers' are fundamental to society and without them none of these 'net givers' would have a hope in hell of being wealthy.

As for the OP's question I don't personally begrudge success, I might even be considered successful myself by some (or maybe not) but what I do begrudge is:

1. Successful people who try to pull the ladder up behind them or who try to stop others being successful.

2. Successful people who have built their wealth on the backs of others and don't share the rewards fairly.

3. Successful people who think they deserve their success and have achieved it through their 'hard work' alone.

I don't agree with this at all. I have a few friends on moderate salaries who send kids to private. They forego new cars and holidays and generally don't waste money, very like OP's upbringing.

Certainly not 'super rich'.

It is all comparative, isn't it. Noone can pay school fees on a moderate salary. They may consider themselves to have a moderate salary, but if they have the money to pay school fees, they are indeed mega rich

I've commented on this before but my mum came from a very rich family, privately educated but had no access to her parent's money (couldn't afford bras, underwear, basic necessities, sanitary pads etc - and her parents wouldn't let her have them) and regularly went without any food. She was on a special plan with the doctors because she was so horrendously under weight.

BUT she came from a very rich, privileged family. That is still true. Doesn't mean she didn't experience abuse. Two different things.

Huh? What are you talking about. That’s how the economy works. Money moving around. We are services based economy mostly selling financial services.

@mummyofhyperDD is there an expectation in Indian culture though that if the children do very well then they will look after their much poorer parents, so it's in their interests to make sure the kids do damn well- I don't think that expectation is taken as given in British non south Asian culture.

Tired soundbites, no substance.

Covid proved nothing. Other than the fact that you can manipulate stupid people to stand outside their houses banging pots and pans once a week. And that they’ll do it with evermore vigour and enthusiasm if you give them free money in the shape of furlough. Those same people then squeal like idiots about the cost of by living when they need to pay for all the money printing through the nose due to inflation. Furlough wasn’t free money after all.

If it bothers you, why would you choose to disclose your education? Hardly a topic anyone would bring up if first met, and for those you are closer to, you can give them the full version of your life story