My fiancé has asked me to lie about childrens religion to his parents

[Quickrunner91]

Fiance has asked me to lie about the religion of our future children to his family.

My fiancés family are very religious. We are not particularly religious. When we have children, we’d like to show them all different religions but allow them to make their own choices.

My fiancés family lives abroad, but he’s asked if we go to see them with children we may have in future, that we lie that we’re raising the children a certain religion.

Am I wrong to feel a little annoyed about this? I want things to go smoothly but at the same time I don’t see why I should have to lie about my own children

In all honesty... I'd be very concerned op, Islam and Islamic countries have rules on children's custody that are not in your favour. In the U.K. you cannot have an Islamic legal wedding anyway, you have to get married at a registry office or they come to some mosques, the religious wedding ceremony is always just that, a ceremony for show.

I'd be worried that as a grown man he can't be honest to his parents and values their beliefs over standing up for his own. Too many Muslim men I've met have gone all religious after kids are born too, not all I should add but I know of several who as youngsters rejected their faith then suddenly started practicing

Engagement means nothing . Either of you can just walk away at anytime so not sure why his religious parents think that's okay. Presumably they wouldn't if he was female.
If his religion has things that you do to indicate that you are a believer then surely they will notice very quickly that you aren't doing these things. Or are you going to have religious gatherings to celebrate things that they would expect to see. Are you expecting your family and friends to attend these. Once your children are 5 or 6 they will very likely say " No granny we don't do that " and look very confused when granny asks about something she would expect them to do. By 7 ,heaven help you in trying to fake anything.

Be very careful. He may say he's not religious now but once you're married with children this can change. There are terrifying instances of fathers taking children abroad and not returning and there's nothing the mother can do 😢 don't underestimate his parent's influence.

Every update gets worse! Don't marry him and don't have kids! And if you are daft enough to marry him and have kids then don't take them to his country!

he needs to suck up the headache from his family. It will be better for him in the long run.

And you're not Muslim?

Very very difficult path to walk, this. A man from a different culture, nationality and religion, with parents he's afraid of and will pander to over everything.

Things are going to be incredibly hard, OP.

Personally I'd briskly tell them the truth. Let them get over it. And accept you'll have to be parenting your own husband who'll revert to childhood at every opportunity. Because he won't help you and won't stand up to them.

@AelinAshriver strangely I too watched Not Without my Daughter yesterday, and, I too, find myself seeing this as a huge red flag

OP please think very, very carefully.

He needs to grow up!

Either he wants to marry you or his mummy.

If he is going to marry you then he needs to be honest with his parents. If he is not prepared to do that then do not marry him.

Well.

We know many couples get married in church without having Christian faith. People even get their babies Christened because it is the cultural tradition rather than them being active Christians.

When marrying, respect for partner’s family’s faith is important and there will be many cultural traditions that a partner will want to continue. Whether it be boxes of mithai and fireworks at Diwali , Christmas Tree, Seder, or whatever.

But OP, I think you need to talk seriously about all the ways that he himself feels pressured and obligated, and how far this will affect you. And how far it will amplify if / when you have children. They may well expect to visit for months at a time. With expectations of having significant influence on your daily life.

Your DP needs to know that it would be as hard for you to live with that as for him to be more honest with his parents.

What household cultural things will you be happy with? E.g Pork-free, no problem. Accept an invitation to Iftar, the children have Eid presents, etc, fine, part of the respect and cultural enrichment. What will he be happy with? Christmas tree? Kids in school nativity / carol service?

There is the circumcision issue… what does he feel about that? What if his parents expect to see a young teen daughter wear hijab outside the home? (Would they?).

They will visit, they are his family. Yours too. You will probably visit: it’s important (IMO /IME) for children to understand and appreciate the full breadth of their heritage.

Amongst my family extended as far as cousins we have Jewish/Christian, English/Japanese, English / S.Asian, English / Kenyan, Christian / Hindu combinations, all of which have nearly broken people at some stage, but all eventually negotiated. But that is because all the individuals involved were able to put respect and understanding above absolutism or a power struggle.

Talk, talk and talk some more about where exactly his own boundaries fall, and yours.

Tell him he can say what he likes to his family but you will have no part in it, and the kids will not be 'pretending' to follow a religion when/if they see them. Maybe he tells them he still is devoutly following this religion, maybe they think you are? It sounds bizarre, tell him you will not lie about things like that. There's a big difference between respectful secular participation in events linked to religion on special occasions, (eg. his parents might want to take your family to a church service on Christmas/ Temple on Divali etc, which is tolerable just about) and actively lying that you are a follower. No-one should have to do that.

Do you realise the control they have over him? So you all have to lie, including the children and he's prioritising them over you and the theoretical kids.

This would be a massive red flag for me and tells me that he will allow his parents to influence decisions that should be solely yours.

You need to nip this in the bud, or what would be next?
And you mentioned a mock wedding too!!! CRAZY!

The presence of children usually changes things. I have been where you are, OP. In two different relationships. Both became living nightmares.
In the first, it was about religion. Your exact scenario. Luckily, i got away.

In the 2nd relationship which ended in marriage, in thiss one the lies were about culture. It ended with police, courts and social services.

Please, heed the previous posters.

RUN. This relationship is not for you. This 'let's lie/pretend to my parents IS the thin edge of the wedge'.

Do not marry this man.

Probably not at all, but certainly not until you have properly bottomed this out.

Does he really want the DC raised in his faith (my first thought was that he must be Catholic, and OP lapsed/social CofE now agnostic)? What are you thoughts on handing over religious observance to him, whilst also making sure you are exposing them to other schools of thought and practices?

I do wonder when prospective parents say they will show the DC all the major faiths and none, and agnosticism; and let them make their minds up, they don't actually realise how much care, effort and time that takes. And what they mean is that they'll simply not raise spiritual or religious matter with their DC at all. Which is fine, but when in a relationship with a more religious man, then that needs to be spelled out. And negotiated between them.

If you cannot negotiate through the big questions during your engagement, then you won't really manage it during your marriage - and for most people, life throws out big questions from time to time. And if you can't work together, your marriage is likely to be difficult and unsatisfying

If you’re still reading this op.
you have advice from a huge demographics of people, all mainly saying this doesn’t sound like a good idea.

having children between two people of the SAME religion/ or none is tricky navigating, what parts of the religion do you agree with, what should they be allowed to be doing, how much freedom you want to give them in the their teens.

ultimately, we are all strangers and this is your life, but if you want to continue with this relationship you need to have difficult conversations and ask those questions.
ARe you expecting the kids to have Muslim names? ( are you happy with that?)

what happens if he gets back into his faith? Will he want you to? The kids to?

will he expect the kids to learn about the faith so he can keep up with the lie?

he just wants you and will think about this later but then it’s too late to walk away easily. You owe it to yourself your future children.
And I say this as a Muslim myself married to to someone who isn’t as practicing how tricky navigating that can be sometimes with kids.

You need to know he can un enmesh himself from his parents. He needs their approval. Is that because inclusion in his family is entirely conditional?? Or is it hecause he lacks a strong sense of himself?? Will he knowingly create dysfunction in his own family to avoid being cast out by his family???

Saying it's important to them glosses over this issue. Will he be excluded if he doesn't please them? Can he handle the exclusion?
Or will he capitulate, lie, ask you to lie?
Ask his kids to lie?

Also, what does pretending to be muslim mean to him? What steps would be made there? How would Pretending to be Muslim differ from Being Muslim?
is he just telling everybody what they need to hear?

I wouldnt marry him without these answers.

We are in this exact position, his family have assumed and we just don't really mention it.

We celebrate the holidays with them etc. We basically cherry pick the fun bits!

In the UK the kids go to a church preschool and we often do things involved with the church.

Neither of us particularly religious, it's just being part of the community wherever you live.

I don't find it to be a big deal but if they are pressuring you then that's a different issue.

Probably should have rtft but I've written this now!

When your fiance goes home for a visit he can go through the motions. He can pray, go to the mosque, behave as his parents would expect. He can do these things because he has been taught them from birth. Your children will not be able to fo the sane unless they have been taught. Are you happy with them doing all that.

This obviously does happen but to say 'without fail' is ridiculous and frankly a bit bigoted.

Where do you stand on father christmas? The Easter bunny? Tooth fairy? All lies we tell our kids. What's the issue lying to adults? Religion and the fictional characters I've mentioned have much in common. In that all are false, or rather we have no proof of.

Adults lie to each other all the time. The issue is that the children will also grow up having to lie. Young children have far less of a filter so it will all fall apart. Or the Op has to accept her children learning and doing all the stuff to make the lie more convincing. Marriage us hard work without adding in all that stress.

Consider what might happen in the absolute worst case scenario, and then decide if you're prepared to accept that. For instance, if your future husband took your children to visit his parents without you, and he and the children never returned to you, would you be accepting of that? If so, then, by all means, live his lie. If not, end the relationship. It will not get any easier once you're married and you have children.

This is one of those situations where you really should listen to the advice given to you by this nest of vipers.

I'd be not thinking about this. I'd be thinking about the future implications where my partner asked me to lie because he's scared of his parents. Doesn't bode well.

I would end the relationship over this.

You can't start your life together based on lies: mock wedding, lying about future kids' religion...

Plus it shows you that he is unable to stand up to his parents and will not take your side if they start criticising you.

I also would not want my kids to grow up in a religion that thinks women are second class citizens.

Think about the worst case scenario too: your kids visit your in laws and the In laws decide they don't like your Western influence and decide the best thing for them is to stay in their country so they can be raised in the faith. Major legal headache and heartbreak...

Spare yourself a lot of grief and find someone else to have a family with.

I just couldn't do it. You'd be bringing up your children to be liars and putting pressure on them to be complicit in your lies. And what would the consequences be, if, for example,in a teenage strop, they told the truth? What if they're expected to participate in services etc. on the visits and they don't know what to do or don't want to take part because they think it's hypocritical?

And the mock wedding? Also expecting everyone in your circle who knows that you are not religious to also be complicit? Your own family? Will you ask all your guests not to say anything about the fact you're not actually religious?

A friend almost ended up down this kind of path once. Thankfully they split up and didn't go ahead.

When I played "hypothetical parent" way back when, it mostly involved lots of never putting myself in the position of not being able to keep them safely with me, and doing the best I possibly could for their wellbeing (and a little bit of 'I'll have long naps while the baby sleeps' 😂😩).

You have the chance not to put yourself in the position of grooming your children to lie, or to mindlessly appease other people thus teaching them that some people are more important than others. And, it extreme circumstances, not to have children with a man who is so happy to lie, and who has links to a country other than yours where his loyalties really lie and which would probably not support you over him when it comes to custody. Hypotheticals yes, but that's the game you're playing, in preparation for actual children where the stakes are real.