To be annoyed my DM was refused access with pram?

[EmeraldA129]

We have a local cafe we go to fairly regularly. Normally myself, my DM & DD who is 4 months & in a pram. We almost always have lunch, juice, coffee & often cake too.

Sometimes my DM comes to look after DD for a few hours & will almost certainly go to the same cafe, sometimes for a full lunch though sometimes just a cake & coffee.

I’ve given them 5* reviews for being so welcoming & friendly. We like the team, we like the food & there are a number of tables that can have a pram sitting next to them without causing hassle to the cafe or other customers.

on Sunday my DM went with my DD & although there were tables available the man that works there (we think owner/ manager) said ‘no, sorry, it’s fine to come in with that when it’s quiet, not when we are busy’. My DM asked if he was being serious, he said yes & showed the person behind her to a table that was free. Other people were leaving & trying to offer their table to my DM, but the man said no, it wasn’t suitable.

we’ve had lunch there many times before DD was born, but have been in at least 10 times since she was born. Previously I’ve always felt like a valued customer but now it feels like they’ve been willing to let us give them custom when they need the extra takings.

My DM won’t be going back & I really don’t want to either. Also want to leave them a new 1* review to balance out my previously glowing one.

This happened 5 days ago so it is clearly really bothering me that I’m posting about it now.

AIBU to be annoyed?

This ‘pushchair vs wheelchair’ argument is interesting to me as I consider my close friend’s example.

She has a 3 year old who has a buggy because he is very severely disabled from brain damage. So this would have been her situation since her baby’s birth. It may have looked just like a normal pushchair to a cafe owner, so they also need to be careful about turning away pushchairs.

I do also generally think that turning away anyone with a pushchair/pram who needs it because they have a baby of an age that can’t even sit up is ridiculous. I have been treated with extreme kindness everywhere so far so I would be really disappointed with this cafe. Be accommodating to people who want to give you their money.

What a twat. I'd delete the previous good review and leave a 1 star review no question. If nothing else, it would be useful for other potential customers. I don't give my money to places that are inaccessible and not inclusive. I love to see mothers and babies out and taking up space in society after being unwelcome for so long. It's great and I have nothing but contempt for those who have a problem with it or won't accommodate it.

"They are also protected by law unlike the smallest and most vulnerable in our society."

Don't be so ridiculous.

People can also stop comparing paying customers using wheelchairs ( or equivalent) to prams.

Sorry I don’t think your point holds up here. People with prams are still ‘paying customers’.

@EmeraldA129 I’m actually quite shocked at all the people sticking up for the cafe here! Had they said “I’m sorry, I don’t have any tables left that will accommodate the pram - if you’re able to fold it and hold the baby then I can seat you at another table” then that’s different. But to be flat out refused us shocking.

I had a similar experience with DS. Due to lockdowns he was 6months before we were even able to venture into a cafe etc with him so I was already nervous as I’d never dealt with feeding etc in a public place. He fell asleep on our walk and DH suggested we go into a local cafe (which we’d been to many times!) for a bit of lunch. DS was sound asleep in the pram and the manager came over and told us they wouldn’t be serving us with a baby present as “other customers come here to enjoy a peaceful lunch, not listen to ‘that’” 🤔 He was honestly sound asleep, hadn’t made a sound. I was mortified.

I have also worked in a very very small shop (we live in a small Scottish seaside town) where we were unable to accommodate prams so I have experience of it from the other side too. I would very politely say to the person with the pram “I’m so sorry but due to the size of the shop we can’t accommodate prams on the shop floor. If you’re happy to carry your little one in the shop I can park the pram through the back for you until you’re finished?”. 99% of people were very understanding as soon as they seen the size of the shop.

In your situation I’d probably go back to the cafe and ask to speak to the manager and ask what their policy is on having prams in the cafe. I’d explain what happened with your DM. If you’re given a friendly explanation and a clear policy laid out to you then I’d probably put it down to back communication on the cafes part when dealing with your DM and I wouldn’t go back to the cafe personally. If you’re met with attitude and “we can refuse anyone for any reason” attitude then I would definitely leave a negative review!

Sorry I don’t think your point holds up here. People with prams are still ‘paying customers’.

The baby isn't eating or drinking anything. The baby can also be in there without the pram.
My point is stop comparing people with disabilities to babies.

No your point still doesn’t hold up. It’s quite common for parents to order something from a cafe for toddlers pushchairs or even something for when a smaller baby is weaning. Or simply some milk.

Until the baby can sit up (around 6 months), it’s safer and more comfortable for the baby to be in the pram while i’m eating or drinking a hot drink, so yes, prams are needed. That’s why people use them.

Did DM offer to collapse the pram and still refused access. Can see the point re the pram as it's a fire and trip hazard.. However if they refused her access with folded pram that's something id complain about.

Surely this should be the other way around - the cafe shoud ask DM if she is ok to fold the pram and let her know where she can store it.

Surely there should be a diagram here reflecting the space available 🤣 it really is down to whether there actually was space or not. Though it doesn't sound like the manager handled the conversation very well anyway.

Just to saw re folding pram or keeping them outside and having baby on lap, i have done that for all 4 of my children without issues as I never use prams and I do like a nice cafe. So perfectly doable. But yes no issue people having prams if not a H&S issue.

Personally I'd go in during the week (with pram) and speak to the manager and see if it's policy or whether the guy was having a moment. It sounds as though it could have been handled more diplomatically it is policy. I'd want to deal face to face and give them the opportunity to explain/apologise before leaving a 1 star review

"Until the baby can sit up (around 6 months), it’s safer and more comfortable for the baby to be in the pram while i’m eating or drinking a hot drink, so yes, prams are needed. That’s why people use them."

Then you need to go to a cafe that accommodates that. I have a teenage wheelchair user and although their are few cafes that would have reasonable grounds to refuse entry, there are others that practically it is not possible or they are too busy or noisy so we go somewhere else.

I don’t understand people posting reviews that make it so much harder for small business owners. Just approach the owner in person or by email and find out why this happened. They are entirely within their rights to say there is no room for a pram - many times I have folded down a pram to go into a cafe or restaurant. Why didn’t your DM just do this?

I have never been asked to fold my pram when in a cafe or restaurant, so I wouldn’t do it automatically. My baby being in her pram for a bit also allows me to quickly drink my coffee while still hot and eat my food with 2 hands. Sometimes I would just like a simple break.

If you act like a twat to your customers, then why shouldn’t you get a bad review, as well as sending your business to Costa?

It was still your ‘parents are not paying customers’ that was ridiculous. Being a parent yourself, I find that really odd. Not sure what your point is, but that’s not right one.

She did go to a cafe that accommodates prams. They've accommodated her so many times before and it was this one instance she was denied service.

If you act like a twat to your customers, then why shouldn’t you get a bad review, as well as sending your business to Costa?

It's not "acting like a twat" to say they can't accommodate a pram when it's busy, though. Or do you really think it is?

Yes I do. Have you read the OP?

There were tables free. Meaning they could make room simply by moving a chair for the buggy.

The other customers were offering DM their table, meaning other customers clearly thought it was ok.

The staff member didn’t even offer to store the buggy elsewhere or make a suggestion for it to be folded.

If you work in any kind of hospitality or customer service, you do your best to be polite and be accommodating to customers. Not to try your best to be accommodating to someone because they have a small baby is being a twat.

"If you act like a twat to your customers, then why shouldn’t you get a bad review, as well as sending your business to Costa?"

You are probably better off in Costa etc until your baby is older.

What a horrible comment. You are nasty.

I don’t need to costa thanks as my local cafe are so welcoming to me and don’t act like twats.

Sorry i may have misread the tone of your post as at first it sounded like a personal comment directed at me.

Either small businesses want money or they don’t.

I’m bewildered by the posters on mumsnet who seem to have found raising a baby very easy and now blithely insist mothers (because it is usually mothers) and their babies don’t need any help or accommodations. Small babies are vulnerable (despite what an above poster says) - prams are as much about keeping them safe, particularly pre-sitting. Motherhood is lonely and many suffer PND. Feeling excluded and a burden to society could tip someone over the edge. Many struggle with slings. Folding up a pram whilst juggling a baby is far from easy and actually just often not possible if the baby is small enough to need a bassinet attachment. In many parts of Europe I’ve been to, babies are prioritised and people are keen to help out. We have an almost punitive attitude here - how dare a woman and her baby be taking up space! Nobody is doing anyone a favour by tolerating babies and children in public spaces. They are members of our society and have just as much right to be out and about. Two businessmen having a meeting over lunch are likely to be just as noisy if not more so as a baby grizzling. Yes, there are practicalities to accommodating prams but a key theme to some of these posts (and I suspect partly why OP and her mum feel so upset) is the feeling of being dismissed. Would a man with a pram be sent away like a naughty child and allowed to come back on Monday afternoon when everyone is gone?

There’s a cafe near my friend’s hometown with owners with a similar hostility towards parents and young children. It’s an outdoor cafe, next to a playground, in a city park.

They hate small kids. My friend had just given birth to her second and we went with her three year old and four day old newborn. The newborn was asleep in a pram and the three year old, who is a quiet little thing anyway, was just standing there holding her mum’s hand in the queue.

The woman who owned the cafe refused to give us ceramic cups so we could sit at one of the many, many empty tables (midweek) and would only give us paper cups as she didn’t want us to sit in.

We asked why and she said she didn’t want the kids to disturb any of her other customers. It was astonishing. Neither child had made a single peep of noise.
My friend explained she’d really like to sit down as she’d just had a C-section to which the woman replied, “I don’t care. I had two C-sections.”

We were just so shocked. She was so brazenly rude. We left. Obviously. We didn’t leave a review but having looked online many, many, MANY people have left very negative reviews for the same thing. Including a breastfeeding mother who was asked to leave because she was taking up a table, despite having bought coffee and cake. Mental approach to running a cafe, in a park.

Excellent post, thank you :)

Also really good point - it’s rather tricky to fold up a pram if you’re on your own but still need to hold a baby who can’t sit yet.

grew so tired of seeing buses stop and refuse to let me on with a buggy as there was already a buggy or two on board.

What else could they do?

I was that soldier too, it was tough & I took the train rather than the bus, when I could, for that reason.

Where I could I used a sling & then switched to an umbrella-style buggy as soon as I could.