to think this isn't right? mother convicted if manslaughter

[greenacrylicpaint]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68223118

A jury has found a Michigan mother guilty of involuntary manslaughter for failing to stop her son from carrying out a deadly school shooting.

by all means, she didn't come across as mother of the year, but come on.
what sentence will the father get?
an absent father in a similar case?

oh america

I think the fact that the father bought the gun, they are very responsible for what happened.

I know she says that she didn't want the husband to, but she didn't stop it. If you were a responsible mother of even a 'regular' 15 year old you shouldn't want your child having a gun.

She should have involved police etc to stop the purchase of the gun or take it, but I am guessing she didn't actually object to him getting the gun.

I agree with you OP that holding people responsible for other people's crimes is a tricky area.

But in this case, they actually bought him the gun. Isn't that similar to someone who provided an adult with a murder weapon being charged as an accessory to murder?

She will be able to appeal, by why are you hoping? Of all the injustices in the world, I can't get worked up about this particular woman being held accountable.

UK laws are/have been much stricter than US laws in this regard.

thanks for all your comments, explanations and views.
very interesting.

She bought him the gun. According to BBC news this morning there was evidence of mental health problems and he’d been searching school shootings online. He was also reprimanded by a teacher for googling ammunition while in school. All of which the parents knew, and they refused to engage with getting him help for MH issues after the school found him drawing pictures of shooting scenarios. They enabled him and now other children are dead. Of course they should be held responsible. Perhaps we should consider making parents responsible for their childrens’ actions here in the UK. Perhaps feckless parents would think twice about foisting their feral offspring on the rest of us.

The dad is due in court on the same charges shortly. A jury found her guilty, I expect they'll do the same with his father.
I hope it sets a precedence, guns aren't toys. I believe it will save countless lives if parents know they'll be held accountable. My sympathies lie with the parents of their son's victims.

I was very surprised to hear they were convicted but absolutely they should be.

This would change the law massively.

However, what would happen to absent parents? Are they culpable if they left the home prior? Could that be argued that it had an effect on the child’s mental health? I personally think so

I think the gun culture scapegoat point is a good one though.

Previously wrote "For example in the UK, there've been cases where a council house young adult gave someone aggressive in their gang/chav type circle a knife. When the person went on to murder someone, the 1st person was in some cases even liable for murder (not just involuntary manslaughter as in this case)" -> one counterpoint to this legal position is that it unfairly penalises young poor men in great numbers. In fact that's why the position of UK law has shifted (though still not totally settled).

In fact, the key case in this legal debate wasn't about giving someone a weapon, but just egging him on daily mischief in excitement, not knowing he was going to murder someone. Question was should he be charged for MURDER directly (not just accessory or manslaughter) – so you can see the potential strictness of UK law. Again though policy considerations about culture etc are being considered.

I’m not sure. I think some parents should be more responsible for how their children turn out.

I commented on the Brianna Ghey thread that parents need to be charged with neglect and the father should be questioned on why he bought and encouraged his son's obsession with knives. It again put a question over the Kyle Rittenhouse verdicts.

You know what - maybe they do! It’s about time parents took some responsibility for situations which, if they had parented properly might not have happened!

She as good as handed him the gun and gave him permission to shoot those children.
Wake up America. Jesus instead of quibbling over whose fault it is take some bloody action. 4 innocent teens are dead.

Maybe from the fact that he was having MH problems including hallucinations, and was doing a drawing of a school shooting? After all, she clearly foresaw something as she texted her boyfriend to say she thought he would do "something dumb",

Why would you want her to appeal instead of her fulfilling her sentence?

She provided her mentally ill son (who was under the age of being able to buy a gun/bullets himself) with a gun and bullets and he subsequently used that gun and shot and killed 4 innocent people (also children).

Had she not provided him with this weapon, he wouldn't have been able to carry out his shooting spree.

What's to appeal here?

What grounds would you have for her to appeal???

However, what would happen to absent parents? Are they culpable if they left the home prior? Could that be argued that it had an effect on the child’s mental health? I personally think so
I think it needs to be looked at on a case to case basis.
There's a world of difference between a parent being absent and a parent refusing mental health assessments and services and then buying a hand gun for your mentally unstable child. Mum knew this kid had issues. She denied him mh services, she bought him a good. There was never going to be a good outcome.

Yes the gun was bought illegally in this case.

but if you couldn’t just walk into a shop and buy a gun, she wouldn’t have been able to buy him a gun, legally or illegally.

if I wanted to buy my child a gun, I can’t just go buy one from a gun shop. That’s the difference.

i doubt this mother would have bought him a gun if it wasn’t so easy to do.

^^This

It's not that they weren't parents of the year, they seemed to go out of their way to neglect his issues

And buying that gun... words fail me

They deserve what they're getting.

They bought their 15 year old a bloody gun.

She bought the gun. And does not regret it.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/06/us/jennifer-crumbley-oxford-shooting-trial/index.html
Jennifer Crumbley took the stand in her own defense and, in a remarkable moment, expressed no regret for her actions.

“I’ve asked myself if I would have done anything differently, and I wouldn’t have,” she testified.

by all means, she didn't come across as mother of the year, but come on.
what sentence will the father get?
an absent father in a similar case?
well,we will have to wait for the outcome of his trail won’t we? He’s not off the hook.
Again re absent father in similar case,it needs to be looked at who bought a gun for the child, who refused mental health assessments but knew there was a problem.

Absolutely agree. He practically begged her (and presumably his father but we will have to wait and see when he goes to trial later in the year) for help. He told her about the voices - she ignore him. She bought him the gun. For god sake, how bad do you have to be as a mother to NOT be responsible for the way your kids turn out? I know some parents don't fall into this category but she clearly does

Apparently the school are also to blame for not checking his bag, before sending him back to class. It's a bit like the criticism a school caretaker got a few years ago, for not trying to stop a live shooter.

Cutting a school meeting short because you have to get to work or otherwise you're potentially going to lose your job isn't necessarily a terrible thing IMO. Kids write and draw all sorts of disturbing things in their diaries (for example) so the parents just might not have taken it seriously if they didn't care that much. And saying he was going to do 'something dumb' could literally mean anything - otherwise we should also blame the person who received that text for not alerting the police. I didn't read the 'don't get caught' comment on the BBC but if that was said in relation to him buying ammo then it could have been in relation to buying gun ammo under age.

I'm not making excuse for someone being a shit parent, i just think they should be tried for neglect not for a crime their child committed in a country where it is perfectly legal to buy your child a gun.

Again, by focusing on the parents it's avoids looking at the real reason shootings like this are a huge problem in the US - gun laws.

I think it's about time that the parents of the kids who go in a shoot up an entire school are called out and charged for their reckless endangerment of others and for manslaughter because they allowed their child to have access to a lethal weapon.

Perhaps if more of these gun toting Second Amendment champions had their freedoms curtailed they might be a little bit more open to introducing some sensible legislation on guns and access to them