to think this isn't right? mother convicted if manslaughter

[greenacrylicpaint]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68223118

A jury has found a Michigan mother guilty of involuntary manslaughter for failing to stop her son from carrying out a deadly school shooting.

by all means, she didn't come across as mother of the year, but come on.
what sentence will the father get?
an absent father in a similar case?

oh america

Would you give your 15 year old son, with MH problems a gun? If he killed people with the gun, would you blame yourself? I'd guess you would. So would society. And so would the law.

Here are the basic statistics: About 86% of the firearms used in school shootings were handguns, 9% were rifles, and 6% were shotguns (there is some rounding in the numbers, which is why they total over 100). About 42% involved weapons taken from family members, usually stolen, while 30% of weapons were bought on the street and 22% were procured from friends. Only 2% of adolescent school shooters got their gun through a licensed dealer.

Yes, this is the first case where a parent has been held criminally liable for manslaughter. I can't think of another case where the parents illegally bought the child a handgun for 'their own', let alone doing so knowing that their child was struggling mentally. IIRC other parents have been convicted of lesser crimes such as inadequately storing a firearm. I think one person has pled guilty to buying a handgun for a minor who later used it in a mass shooting, but I don't remember if it was at a school or at another location.

In Michigan it is illegal for a minor (under 18) to own or possess a handgun. Crumbley was 15 and the gun was purchased by his parents and given him as a gift. Strictly illegal.

Each US state makes its own gun laws. The legal age for a handgun is usually 18 - 21. 'Long guns' (rifles and shotguns) tend to have 'less restrictive' ownership rules basically due to legal hunting. Automatic/semi-automatic rifles in some states have the same laws as handguns.

Where do you even begin with this?? Our son has been having mh problems the school said, he had been doing violent drawings... Uh dunno.. Say its his birthday soon what shall we get him.. Mmmm I know.. A handgun.. Perfect 👌.

Meant to add: The statistic are for ALL school shootings, many of which were NOT carried out by students, but by adults

It seems crazy. But I suppose they brought him the gun. My 16 year old asked me to buy him a knife. Like a camping survival type knife. Do we go camping? No. Was a straight no chance from me.

She’s absolutely culpable and I expect the father will be found to be too.

Quite right.

The parents were called in to school and asked to take him home. They both said they couldn't.

He was in school, with a gun at that point. I don't think anyone knew he had a gun with him.

That afternoon he shot 4 people.

I watched a US woman's take on this, she is pro gun and she her husband and her children have guns, but they are locked away and only taken out to go to the shooting range.

Her children are not allowed to touch a gun until they are at a range with a parent.

Two people who supplied guns to the Columbine killers were prosecuted.

It might make some of these feckless parents think twice in future.
I certainly hope more parents are prosecuted in future; they’re culpable and complicit In their DCs actions.

She's knew her son was mentally ill. She bought him the gun. He had threatened to kill multiple times. The morning of the murders they were at the school as it had been discovered he had tons of drawings in his backpack of bloody bodies he had drawn. His parents insisted he not be punished and allowed to go to class instead of getting him help. They refused to get him any mental help and he murdered his classmates. After he had murdered his classmates, the parents tried to flee authorities and there was a massive manhunt for them. They knew they had caused these horrible killings and tried to evade the law. Then they hired the best lawyers for themselves and not for their son.

It was devastating. I live nearby and it has devastated the community and is so so awful. They don't even tell in the news half of what has happened. Her trial is over and she is guilty. Her husbands trial is in a few months. They are guilty and knew he was going to kill. They deserve every single thing that is coming to them. They are horrible humans.

I'm currently listening to a pod cast.

I actually feel sorry for the shooter. I'm not making excuses, what he did was wrong and obviously I have more sympathy for the victims and their family.

Apparently when he had braces and they took him to the dentist he had 13 cavities.

He was neglected, he new he needed help and his parents didn't get him that help.

Would you mind sharing the name of the podcast please?

I'd also like the podcast name please

thank you all for your thoughts and opinions actually quite civilised for aibu

you've given me a lot to think about.
i still think it's a difficult issue and not at all black and white. but it's good to see the different perspectives.

I said pod cast but it was on YouTube, I'll see if I can find it, or you could try a search

This one

Why do you have such strong feelings about a case that you know hardly anything about.

That's what shocks me about this thread. omg, so a PP didn't like sound of the conviction, but rather than go fact-find, PP start soapboxing on here with incorrect statements, like saying only the mother was charged or treating involuntary manslaughter like a murder charge or ignoring fact the boy was under-age to have a gun, and ignoring all the other enabling, negligent things the parents did. I've barely paid attention to this case but knew the dad would be tried next month, the mother bragged about her son having a gun & ignored the concerns the school kept raising.

I didn't know the lad lived in neglect but not surprised. Brenda Spencer also lived in squalor & had a negligent (alkie) parent.

Kyle Rittenhouse was my first thought, tbh. He was under-age to possess a firearm but... he drove himself to a riot with a gun he kept at a friend's house, since he was underage. I can't find any info that mum knew he had the gun, helped him buy it, or that she knew he would drive to the riots where he killed 3 people.

The legal mechanisms to hold the parents (or other enablers) responsible for school shootings are fairly new. So uncharted territory how this all plays out, legally.

There is a long tradition of holding people responsible for enabling a crime. You can't help somebody commit suicide. It's conspiracy if you help them deal drugs. It's illegal to aide & abet an offender or possess stolen goods. My cousin was asleep in back of a car when his friend (passenger) took shots at a cop ; my cousin was nearly charged with conspiracy for that assault & probably would have gone to prison if the cop hadn't survived. So basically, the US supreme court is never going to overturn all that precedence about criminal liability if enabling crime, no matter how pro-gun rights the justices are.

Kyle Rittenhouse was my first thought, tbh. He was under-age to possess a firearm but...
He wasn't. Minors in Wisconsin are allowed to have guns with long barrels, which his was.

he drove himself to a riot with a gun he kept at a friend's house, since he was underage. There wasn't an actual riot when he went there. He went during the day. He was cleaning graffiti during the day from a building and then he was asked by the owner if a car dealership to 'guard it'. I seem to remember he worked on the street where the dealership was. He certainly had connections to the area.

Obviously it's ridiculous he was just there with a gun but he wasn't charged with any of that as he wasn't breaking the law by having it.

He shot three people and two of them died.

The morning of the shooting she and her husband were in a meeting with two members of staff. I don't know if Ethan was there or not.

They both said they were too busy to take him home, after seeing what he had written and drawn.

The parents knew he had a gun, the mother and staff knew he had been looking at ammunition.

After leaving the meeting she contacted the man she was having an affair with to arrange a hook up.

She was in a position to stop that shooting. But she didn't.

Would she be charged in the UK? I have no idea.

But some US states have interesting laws. Felony murder for instance. It varies by state but if you are committing a felony and someone is killed then you stand trial for murder.

So if a group is robbing a bank and one of the group shoots and kills someone then you all stand trial for murder.

If you are robbing the bank and you don't kill anyone but the police come in shooting and kill an innocent person, you stand trial for murder.

@momonpurpose

I think guns are so entrenched in the US imagination you will not get any form of control until it becomes socially unacceptable to have guns other than for things like law enforcement or hunting.

I've been rewatching 'The Rookie', I have no idea how realistic it is but I'm shocked at how often they pull guns out.

You had Charlton Heston saying, "from my cold dead hands" what you need is celebrities saying they will never own a gun.

Or even saying they have guns but they are kept in a gun safe.

I agree with the conviction in this case, and I don’t think this sets a precedent in general. The parents ignored his obvious mental health condition, bought a child a gun, which they also failed to secure, and used to engage with the school who found a picture he’d drawn of a shooting.

Sometimes parents don't know what their teen DC are up to. Especially when they go out and meet up with their friends.

But these parents knew that their son was struggling with mental health issues. He told them about his struggles, school knew about his struggles... so why go out and buy a gun?
I am glad she got convicted for enabling her child to become a killer.

I just hope the father also gets convinced as well.

Difficult but in this case it sounds right that both parents are charged.
I just hope it has a wider effect on other neglectful abusive parents to take better care of their children and listen to the concerns of schools to stop these shootings happening.

Oh I think gun control and parents prosecuted both need to be done. Unfortunately here while I myself vote for gun control if it's voted down there is nothing we can do. You are very very lucky to live somewhere with such strick laws. I wish it were the same in the US

Whilst I think both parents are guilty. Nancy Grace is a thoroughly despicable piece of excrement and looking to her for comment (or others like her) is at best seriously misplaced. Her type of output is everything that's wrong with a big part of the media and society.

Those who do a terrible job of raising children endanger or at least burden us all collectively so I have no sympathy for her