To think Labour should add ‘getting us back in the EU’ to their election manifesto

[bluewanda]

We had the referendum, we gave Brexit a go, and nearly 9 years on, I think it’s plain for most people to see that leaving the EU was a massive mistake. Even people I know who voted for Brexit admit that now they wished they hadn’t, given the shitshow that has unfolded since. So, why not nip it in the bud and get back in the EU ASAP? If Labour would add it to their election manifesto that would speed up the process, as we’d have a mandate by the end of this year. So why don’t they?

I'm not sure the time is right for re-entry, and it may never be. What we absolutely should be considering is whether the Single Market and Customs Union are viable.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Who says that I wouldn't ask the same questions of a canvasser with a blue/yellow/green rosette as I ask of one with a red one? As things stand the only rosette worth voting for is the oversized one with "Vote Loony" written on it.

I've had a skim through Labour's "missions" as you've suggested and can't find a mention of a transport policy. No plan to make rail fares affordable, no plan to electrify anything, no plan to complete HS2, no mention of sorting out the chaotic system we currently have, nothing. The Shadow Transport Secretary doesn't seem too bad, but she appears to have no support from above. That doesn't mean that I support Rishi "helicopter" Sunak's approach of "trash the railways and end the fictional 'war on motorists'" but Labour have to do better than "we're not the other lot" if they want me to actually vote for them rather than spoil my ballot.

On the subject of NPR, it'll go nowhere unless HS2 is built in full. The business case for it relies upon HS2 paying for the tunnel between Manchester Airport and Piccadilly.

I’m not sure many are wanting re join either but SM and CU require FOM and I imagine that’s Starmer’s hurdle in terms of the voters he wants

@GasPanic are you happy with the state of the UK though ? As far as I can see most of our public service s are crumbling and not for purpose. Ultimately I guess it depends where you live and your level of affluence as to how much you are affected.
Labour will probably start releasing their manifesto contents over the next few months. Many of their ideas were pilfered and watered down by the tories last election so no doubt they’ll try to keep stuff under wraps as long as possible. And it’s a cert that they will be lambasted in the headlines in the run up.

It's unlikely you will see too many policies before the manifestos are released.

Otherwise the opposite side just steals them.

Elections are mostly won by appealing to the centre ground. So policies that appeal to that area can be implemented by either side.

I don't believe either side has much choice, in the respect than neither of them can borrow money, so if they want more spending it is going to have to be funded by tax rises.

I was on the understanding that CU didn't require FOM of people? SM obviously does.

I've done a quick Google, I think I'm correct. Happy to be corrected.

SM and CU have already been ruled out. Policies are thin outside that

If people wanted Labour to get a funding bounce then they’ve ruled out the obvious and most impactful way already

Really?

Ok off to google..

@GasPanic

They cannot raise income taxes further because the top 10% are basically maxed out. Behavioral changes have already happened with people working less or flat out retiring.

So they can only really go after the "adjustments" or lower hanging fruit of taxes.

So they will likely target:

1. Pensions
2. VAT on [insert here]
3. Corporation Tax (reduce the exemptions)
4. Tax exemptions

Basically, they seem to be targeting the multitude of tax exemptions in the UK economy to gain a bit of revenue.

This means the next five years will be grim. The UK economy will keep sinking until it stabilises at a lower real GDP per capita. I don't think the Brexiters realised just how poor the UK was going to end up outside of London.

@Daftasabroom looks like you’re right although it was two second look so reserving any one else coming along with a correction

In that case I don’t know why they’d rule it out so early

@Daftasabroom

A Customs Union requires that both sides agree on the same set of rules.

The UK (now) is intent on diverging from a common set of rules (making it poorer), but id you want a CU type deal, it will have to revert back to EU rules. There is no choice there.

I am not happy with the state of the UK, but I don't see anything that Starmer or Sunak is proposing that is going to make it any better.

We've had almost 30 years of awful government, where people have become more takers than givers.

Society is now about how much people can extract from it, not how much they can contribute. We're now reaching the point where the extraction is becoming unsustainable and we need to move back towards more of the population being net contributors rather than takers. That is going to cause a lot of pain.

In addition the government(s) has(ve) pursued policies that have degraded the voting publics standard of living. They have not supplied adequate housing and services, while allowing huge numbers of people into the country to try to drive GDP and enrich some sections of society at the expense of others. Not surprisingly this policy will soon reach its end point.

I will wait for the manifestos to see which of Labour or the Tories is most likely to enact policies that will rebalance the country, but I'm not expecting much from either side.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

What I would disagree with is people claiming that being a member of the EU would be some sort of solution to it.

Ifside the Customs Union, the UK cannot negotiate its own independent trade deals with other countries. Outside the CU, it can

Though that's hardly been a stellar success so far.

In the end it’s a fight between low taxes and next to little state intervention or hoping folk will be happy to fork out more in tax for better social care provision, to fund renovation of collapsing state schools, improve the criminal justice system, support NHS. That’s the stark choice.

The issue is due to being maxed on tax people make behavioural changes as @BouncingJAS says

You get to the point of a very difficult spiral down and that’s when it will be very tough to get out of

@GasPanic I actually thought New labour did some great things only to be dismantled by the tories. Obviously there were some not so good but to lump them in with the current lot is ridiculous.
Not sure what your other comment was about re people trying extract more than they contribute. Most don’t earn enough to do this. I’ve never claimed any benefits, I’m a crit care nurse so wage isn’t amazing, I guess you’d class me as a drag on the economy but my job is invaluable.

Labour's approach is to get the UK economy growing faster, not raise taxes, per Rachel Reeves last October.

I can see why they would say that. Taxing non doms and levying VAT on private schools won't raise enough Reversing the Tories changes to National Insurance and any tax cuts they make before the election won't either. And yet they don't want to raise taxes.

It'll be interesting to see how thr next Labour government purposes to grow the economy.

The election campaign will result in serious scrutiny of Labour’s policies. You can be sure that they will try to be as vague and inoffensive as possible while repeating things that no-one could disagree with (“we support the NHS” etc etc).

It’s going to be almost impossible for them to lose, but remember how quickly Theresa May’s campaign fell apart over the social care policy!

Labour's approach is to get the UK economy growing faster

Well they’re going to need to say how because it’s pie in the sky otherwise

Which is why I mentioned that they should be putting forward some proper reform. Flatten out the marginal rates, merge NI into income tax (that alone would remove a good few loopholes), tax capital gains as income tax rather than at a lower rate, replace IHT with applying CGT when inherited assets are liquidated etc.

I absolutely get that, and have no problem with it. It's not like we've made much in the way of positive strides with trade deals we've done so far.

They're not comparable but we also had the referendum on AB voting, I wonder whether that will prove to be as significant, in a negative way, as Brexit. Would we have had a less partisan and less polarized HoC? Would British police serve us better,?

@EasternStandard essentially the tories have had 13 years to grow the economy. Unsuccessfully as it happens. Northern Powerhouse - look how momentous that was. If anything the tories should be defending their policies. I mean the proof is in the pudding. How affluent and happy we all are. How the economy is forging ahead outside London and the south east. If anyone should be subjected to this kind of interrogation and held to account it should be them.

Labour still need to say how.

IMO a decent bump would come from changing EU status

Other than that they’ll have to give detail.