To think Labour should add ‘getting us back in the EU’ to their election manifesto

[bluewanda]

We had the referendum, we gave Brexit a go, and nearly 9 years on, I think it’s plain for most people to see that leaving the EU was a massive mistake. Even people I know who voted for Brexit admit that now they wished they hadn’t, given the shitshow that has unfolded since. So, why not nip it in the bud and get back in the EU ASAP? If Labour would add it to their election manifesto that would speed up the process, as we’d have a mandate by the end of this year. So why don’t they?

YANBU OP.
Brexit is a never ending swirling pool of shit like a backed up toilet.
If a referendum were held today, they know the result would be a majority want to rejoin especially since most of the Brexit OAPs died of Covid, including my a few marbles short DF who voted from Malta. Happy to benefit from the EU and then slam shut the gates for every generation after him.

I have to say, Brexit caused Putin to invade Ukraine is a new one on me. And I hear a lot of crazy conspiracy theories.

It's the US that Russia's nervous of.

I don't think they are. Brexit wasn't the only western democratic vote Putin interfered with/ funded in 2016.

Especially since he invaded it in 2014…two years before the referendum.

I think you are deluded along with the poster who thinks Brexit caused Russia to invade Ukraine. Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, was that a cause from Brexit too when it wasn't on the table at the time?

Plus I shall repeat again:

Remainers/Rejoiners and all who keep banging on about it - what is so amazing about the EU just right now that you insist that the UK absolutely has to rejoin it with all the costs and losses that would involve?

The EU won't let us back in with anything like the terms we had before - so even if we did rejoin we wouldn't get as much out of it as if we had never left. Brexit cost the EU too and they didn't vote for it, why would they make it easy for us now?

i wouldnt be surprised if Starmer went for a kind of eea arrangement if he wins a second election

Posters seem to think the EU are hallowed and gold standard. They point at the UK government as inferior, but are the EU any better?
Today in the Irish Journal:
https://www.thejournal.ie/mep-scandal-investigation-6280642-Jan2024/

What part of the UK did the EU rule over when we were in?

It really is nonsense to suggest the EU has primacy over the nation state, it just doesn't happen & in areas that it does, ie ECJ, member states have democratically signed up to these.
You seem to like to imply that the EU is some sort of foreign power, reality is it is run purely by its members.

Yes defence is indeed the sole concept on foreign policy, which is rather odd when you consider art 5.
I wonder how many people realise that if Russia attacked little Latvia, we would be obliged to defend Latvia with British blood and treasure, no debates, no vote in the commons... it has to happen.

Has the USA got this amazing intel gathering? what prior warning did they give to Israel? their strikes on the Houthis are certainly working... not!
then of course, the europeans didn't believe Iraq had WMDs the UK and the USA did.

The USA is not going to going in a mutual defence pact with the UK, thats ridiculous, would just drag them into another European war if we sent troops to the continent should Russia push further West.

No, if and its a big if, the US left Nato, we would be forced back into European defence pacts & the Europeans inc the UK, will need to get back to Cold War levels of spending.
BTW the UK is also one of these nations that doesn't spend enough on defence, to get to less than 2.5 of GDP (way below inflation) is to include things like pensions, peace keeping and redundancy payments.

Its about ease of trade and having some sort of floor on standards, rather than a Gold standard.

However, at least the EU uncover fraud and corruption with jail terms for those found guilty, our Government excuse it... PPE "Lady" Mone, Covid Business loans for example, all written off.
Even with the Teeside investigation, the final report was so complex no one can figure out what it actually says! the headline being "Found no evidence of fraud" as pointed out, that all depends how far you look!!! :(

You're obviously the deluded one if that's all your brain can come up with. I have dual nationality - I don't need the UK to rejoin the EU. Whatever happens my family will be fine. The fact is that the UK is never going to recover. 4th world country. Have you visited the supermarkets and the NHS lately?

But we democratically, if wrongly IMO, withdrew from CJEU supremacy. That’s a state of affairs at any one time, not an argument for the EU not assuming supremacy. One can argue that ‘sovereignty shared’ is how one should regard EU competencies, as Blair used to do, but that’s really a matter of semantics.

We’ve never had a defence pact within the EU framework that I’m aware of. And why wouldn’t the US defend its interests in Europe? In the same breath you make it clear that the US does defend its interests all over the place outside its borders.

As for the US action against the Houthis, the Guardian reported a statement from Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, South Korea, the UK and the US that they “will not hesitate to defend lives and protect the free flow of commerce in one of the world’s most critical waterways”. This isn’t a US going-it-alone thing. It’s just that the US has the ships and firepower.

One thing you didn’t mention was the Balkans. The US sorted that out. The EU failed miserably - in fact made it all worse. And it was on the EU’s doorstep. The US is much the biggest material helper of Ukraine too.

I wish we were still confronting the world’s problems as part of the EU. But it’s not the black and white situation you present it as.

But you haven't shown how it follows that Putin's invasion of Ukraine was linked to Brexit or other Western electoral interference.

It sounds like a conspiracy theory.

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying Well i never said we had defence pacts with european countries during our EEC/EU membership but we did pre NATO and if the US pulls out, then we will have to return to these once more, hardly ideal if you look at how successful they were :(
The USA would have made it clear they were no longer interested in Europe, they will turn to Asia and the Pacific.

For all our sakes, i hope Trump is all bluster on this.

The Balkans? how on earth was that an EU failure, the ex Yugoslavia wasn't even in the EU and as the EU has no military force of its own, how was it going to put that right?
The Balkans does show what happens with no European political and trade associations.
For all its many failings, the EU provides a talking shop for national disagreements.

Yes the USA has the firepower and the means to project, even combined, Europe doesn't, inc the UK.

On the Houthis, only negotiation will solve this, probably via a ceasefire (and aid) in Gaza, SA has been using hi tech munitions against them for a decade and got no where nr defeating them in the end they talked and have or had a ceasefire.

Pre-NATO (pre-1949)? You mean that the UK was an ally against Nazi Germany? That doesn’t really take things very far.

The EU fucked up on the Balkans politically. This article is relevant:

https://www.politico.eu/article/fifteen-years-of-failure-in-the-balkans/

Plus Germany rushed to recognise Croatia which fuelled antagonism and conflict.

As you say, the EU has no army. So how would being in the EU help us defensively?

I don’t suppose the Houthis are easy to dissuade militarily (particularly given their orders coming from Tehran) but they will need to be resisted. Nothing they are doing is related to achieving peace in Israel/Gaza. That issue is cover for violence against western targets. TBH, the most likely outcome of all the recent Iranian proxies’ activities is a US attack on Iran. I don’t welcome it, but if it happens I hope it cuts off funding and direction for terrorist groups in the ME.

I really don’t get why people say it’s been a massive mistake. My life has only changed due to the cost of living crisis which is due to higher oil and gas prices due to Russia being bloody idiots and then the hangover from covid reducing manufacturing and delaying times in china for a while, the whole world has gone through it. The UK isn’t in recession like Germany and we are set to overtake Frances economy next year. Not really a massive disaster in my eyes. So I think it would be a waste of parliamentary time , let alone a big finger up at democracy.

The EU still hasn't sorted out the problem of Cyprus (an EU member), which remains a divided Island patrolled by the UN some 50+ years after Turkey's invasion. In theory, it should be a quick fix, especially with Turkey wanting to join the EU, but there are still areas that people aren't allowed into, crumbling buildings (inc big hotels) etc. It's an absolute disgrace that the EU hasn't managed to formulate a political answer and resolution.

That’s a UN problem, not an EU problem.

Aren't we lucky to have gathered all the World's leading political and economic experts on a single thread on MN?

True. But then the world’s finest lawyers gather on the legal threads, renowned psycho-sexual counsellors on the Relationship board, the education experts rally to the education topics and the most sought after consultant physicians and surgeons…they’re all over MN.

This thread is a poor relation for expertise, distinguished as it is.

Not really. David Cameron did warn about it during the referendum campaign.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-could-spark-war-in-europe-david-cameron-warns-a3243046.html

Which is not the same thing you were saying:

"Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt?"

It is NATO that's had the military responsibility for European security, not the EU. Putin pointed his wee finger at NATO for it in an attempt to justify his invasion. 🤷‍♂️

Still, you've failed to provide a proper argument that Putin's invasion of Ukraine is rooted in Brexit.

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying On expertise, it would help if you read what was written.
Nowhere did i say the EU has an army, i said things will change IF Trump takes the US out of NATO, Europe will need to have its own defence strategy, outside of NATO.

Again the Balkans, so the EU is responsible for the Yugoslavia breaking up following the collapse of the USSR?
Ultimately its the post WW2 settlement and Soviet influence that has caused the problems in the Balkans.

Why not blame the EU for Ukraine? i'm sure you can link to someone who says it is.

@DownNative As anti Brexit as i might be, its hard to link Ukraine (directly) to Brexit, though Putin did support Brexit, a weaker EU suits him, just as Putin likes Trump and vice versa.

But the EU has a far bigger problem now, Hungary.

I don’t understand your reference to expertise. I was just replying to a poster who I thought had made a general, snarky point about everyone posting on this thread. I just pointed out that self-appointed commentators are the stuff of MN. Me included.

I did read your post. My point about no EU army wasn’t very clear I admit. It was just meant to mean that we’ve never had a defence pact via the EU; a defence pact with European nations doesn’t need, and wouldn’t be helped by, EU membership; and there’s no extra-national military force in the EU. So it’s not obvious how defence can be linked with Brexit at all.

I didn’t say that the Balkan conflict was caused by the EU. The EU failed to do any political or other good in the Balkans, despite regarding it as an EU issue for being a war in Europe. The Balkans coined the EU policy of ‘crisis management’. That’s been quietly dropped after becoming an embarrassment. NATO - in effect the US - stopped the war in TFY and led to the prosecution of Milosevic and others.

Of course I don’t blame the EU for causing Russia’s invasion of Ukraine either. My point was that stopping Russia is necessary for greater safety in the rest of Europe and that it’s the US that’s doing the most to achieve that, and it’s NATO that’s the only safeguard against any Russian broadening of that war.

I don't think it's a vote winner, people are sick of it now.
I would rather be in the EU and voted remain but I'm not sure it's the right time