To think Labour should add ‘getting us back in the EU’ to their election manifesto

[bluewanda]

We had the referendum, we gave Brexit a go, and nearly 9 years on, I think it’s plain for most people to see that leaving the EU was a massive mistake. Even people I know who voted for Brexit admit that now they wished they hadn’t, given the shitshow that has unfolded since. So, why not nip it in the bud and get back in the EU ASAP? If Labour would add it to their election manifesto that would speed up the process, as we’d have a mandate by the end of this year. So why don’t they?

There’s a lot in that. My view was that we should have remained until the choice was so stark as to be urgent and unavoidable. But I do accept that we’d have had to stay or jump at some point in the next 20 years or so. I suspect that some other states will face the same decision within that sort of timeframe.

Thats a well debunked myth, Cameron got most of the reforms he asked for, the problem wasn't being rebuffed, it was he asked for things that went right over the heads of the British public.
Cameron was/is weak, he couldn't stand up to his party (like Major did) and believed his own arrogance.

T.May wanted a soft Brexit??? really!!! she said Brexit means Brexit and a big fat NO to CU and SM.
She did this country a great mis service by putting party before country.

After 3 years the public were fed up with hearing about Brexit, Labour were in a mess, Boris had a very clever PR strategy with Levelling up and Get Brexit Done.

The EU always said the UK can have whatever it likes BUT the more we want the closer to the EU we have to be, it was the ERG that scuppered that idea.

Thats just Brexitier nonsense, the "cause" & "superstate" you give yourself away with those!

I'd suggest its closer political integration that has lead to more splits.

Plenty of countries in the EU really value their national identity, not least the French!
I think the EU will shrink in size too, certain ex USSR states aren't really too keen on the EU and would prefer closer integration with Russia.

However, Ukraine and possibly Trump (withdraw either full or partial) from NATO will change the EU, they will have to take more decisions over defence, probably leading to a European equivalent of NATO with no USA, it'll be in the UKs best interests to be in that.

However, Ukraine and possibly Trump (withdraw either full or partial) from NATO will change the EU, they will have to take more decisions over defence, probably leading to a European equivalent of NATO with no USA, it'll be in the UKs best interests to be in that.

I don't know whether Trump would be able to take the US out of NATO if the military didn't want it out

The US military is powerful domestically.

One can differ about the language but there’s no argument about the EU’s movement towards being a political, constitutional entity above its member states. That’s not in any doubt.

That was the only aspect of the EU that I’ve ever felt uncomfortable about, and even then I voted remain in the referendum.

I have a strong feeling that the UK may just be the first of a few countries that will bridle against EU institutional political integration. The more sensible course for the UK would have been to stay in and make the arguments for sovereignty. But there’s obviously a point (which IMO we hadn’t reached) when departure is on the table.

Alignment of tax regimes will be a flash point which seems unavoidable and is just a matter of time, for example. As is probable Commission intervention into member states going it alone on illegal immigration.

As for defence, we’d do much better to join with the US if NATO collapses than join in with the EU.

If NATO collapses because the US has embraced an isolationist position, the US won't be remotely interested in some islands off thr continent of Europe.

I don’t think that’s right. The US turning its back on NATO is different to the US shunning alliances. Trump’s main ire with NATO was that the US has been footing the bill, not that NATO is politically or strategically a bad thing.

Russia’s activities have made European countries reconsider defence spending anyway.

It’s only ever been France (which pulled out of NATO for a while) that’s really tried to suggest an EU defence force. Most commentators dismiss the idea out of hand.

Federal superstate was coined by a remainer IIRC.

Call it what you will. Ideology, project, objective. It's the same thing. Unless you're hoping that it will never happen and don't want a word for it.

I'm sure plenty of countries do value their national identity. But that is often in direct threat to the superstate. Being a member of the EU means putting the interests of the EU first, not national interests.

The closest the EZ (and maybe the EU) has come to splitting was in the GFC around 2010. The ECB (controller of monetary policy for the EZ) wanted to impose fiscal constraints on the Greeks which were being strongly rejected. The Greeks of course were running their country on an unsustainable fiscal path which was a direct threat to the EZ. But were unwillingly to compromise because they believed as a nation they had more right to choose how they spend their money themselves than cede authority to the EZ. In the end they were threatened with expulsion from the EZ and they had to comply with the ECBs wishes. But this didn't happen without a massive amount of social unrest and ended up being a pretty close run thing as to whether Greece would be expelled from the EZ and ultimately the EU.

This is a clear example of how the belief in the primacy of national identity/sovereignty over the superstate presents a direct threat to the stability of the superstate. So no, not "nonsense" as you describe it. I suggest you read the book "Adults in the Room" by Yanis Varoufakis for an interesting insight into how the negotiations went.

As regards NATO and the EU, one of the concepts of statehood is that a state defines its own foreign policy. With the US appearing to be less interested in NATO and pivoting towards China as the area where it focuses its military, it is going to be less interested in contributing to and maintaining NATO. The EU has a chance to step into that gap and form its own foreign policy and military component to defend itself (as any state should) - ie further integration of both foreign policy and military - another step on the way to becoming a superstate.

It's not at all clear to me that it will be in the UKs interest to be part of a military collaboration with the EU due to it's strong ties with the US and the anglo intelligence community/co-operation, so I would be interested in hearing why you think that is the case that we would be better off in Europe, which to date has been unwilling to spend enough money on defence and has a far inferior intelligence gathering capability compared with the US.

Britain won't rejoin the EU for decades - if ever.

https://www.ft.com/content/9c2df35f-555a-4c34-84e6-93e125d6c410

Britain and the EU went their separate ways and from the EU point of view, the issue is over and done with. Europeans, their governments and Brussels got a gutful of the Brexit drama and moved on.

As the article says:

Why should the effort not be made to rejoin? There are three decisive reasons: first, it would create a host of new and damaging uncertainties; second, it would tear British politics apart just as they were calming down; third, the deal the UK would get would be quite different from the one it had, not least because, as Michel Barnier, the erstwhile EU negotiator, has told the Financial Times, “The EU today is no longer the EU that the UK left. We have begun to draw the lessons of Brexit"

Wow has anyone seen what's happening in Italy, Netherlands, Germany, Spain, Poland, Belgium and France recently?

France right now protesting against EU rules - all roads around Paris blockaded. They are setting fire to everything.

Labour would have to be insane to suggest joining back up to that lot!!!

French farmers protesting is a national sport. In fact street protests are tradionally more apart of political life in European countries than in Britain.

The French kick off every few years with this sort of stuff and fair play to them.

That said I am sure someone will be along shortly to blame the whole thing on Brexit.

Just another good reason why relying on Dover to import significant amounts of our goods is a bad idea IMO.

This.

I love how these panicky Remainer/Rejoiners never seem to have the first fucking clue what is actually happening in the various European economies and in the EU.

Leaving the EU has not been a disaster, there have been some downsides, but it's nowhere near a disaster - not even close.

Are you kidding? I live in NI, our Assembly hasn't functioned for 2 years. It's been a disaster for us.

Then there's the waste of money, running the referendum, implementing Brexit and the divorce bill.
And
The diversion of manpower to dealing with Brexit rather than doing necessary stuff like Pandemic planning.
The loss of trained staff who went home to EU countries to be replaced by "Not Work Ready" staff from further afield.
The creation of a divided country along generational lines as well as Leave/Remain.

Brexit has been a disaster for Britain. The only silver lining is that it's destroyed the Tory Party.

@TonTonMacoute deluded 😂

Reversing it would be fixing the country. I don't think the people who run the show want to fix the country. Britain is well and truly on its way to becoming a 4th world country. It's how they want it and this is only the start.

And there's a question mark over Putin's full scale invasion of Ukraine. Would he have done it if we remained? Why did Russia fund the Leave Campaign?🤔

Really? You think Putin would have stayed at home if UK MEPs were still turning up for votes on farming directives?

And is there any evidence that Russia funded the leave campaign?

I wish we’d remained. But I doubt if any of Russia’s mayhem is anything to do with the EU. It’s the US that Russia’s nervous of.

9 years?

We didn’t officially leave the EU until January 2020.

It’s been 4 years.

Yep. If U.K. had voted remain Putin would have put down his troops, really?

That’s a lot of focus on us

Agree the US is a bigger factor

The first 3.5 years following the referendum, were spent negotiating.

Nothing can be achieved in that time whilst those negotiations are taking place.

We’ve only been independent from the EU for 4 years. Which in the grand scheme of things, isn’t all that long in terms of being able to see the full extent of the impact.

That's actually a feature of the system under the Belfast Agreement and NOT a bug/glitch resulting from Brexit.

As long as that feature remains, it allows Provisional Sinn Féin and the DUP to collapse the Assembly since powersharing is mandatory rather than voluntary.

Collapse has happened before Brexit and would have happened at some point even without Brexit anyway.

Hence, Alliance calls for reform of the Belfast Agreement. 🤷‍♂️

I don't see the connection there. The EU doesn't deal with military matters as its NATOs job to secure Europe militarily.

The EU deals with economical and political issues.

The MOU Ukraine got from Western powers promising to defend them in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons if Russia ever invaded wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

The real kicker is if Ukraine hadn't given up nuclear weapons Russia wouldn't have dared to invade.

UK leaving the EU?

Nah, that wasn't a factor in that.