To think Labour should add ‘getting us back in the EU’ to their election manifesto

[bluewanda]

We had the referendum, we gave Brexit a go, and nearly 9 years on, I think it’s plain for most people to see that leaving the EU was a massive mistake. Even people I know who voted for Brexit admit that now they wished they hadn’t, given the shitshow that has unfolded since. So, why not nip it in the bud and get back in the EU ASAP? If Labour would add it to their election manifesto that would speed up the process, as we’d have a mandate by the end of this year. So why don’t they?

Yes. And that's how referendums in democracies all over the world work. Although referendums are generally not a good thing. If there were a referendum on reintroducing the death penalty in the UK there's a worrying chance the pros would win.

Ooh that would be interesting.

Democracy is totally amazing until the majority wants something you don't...

@CoatRack it's exactly what Ireland did several times and no revolutions happened.

To get a good enough mandate to make such a massive and permanent change to the country surely you can see that a pretty substantial majority should be required.

Rather than the future direction of the country being permanently decided by whether or not Pam from accounts got round to voting, which was the way we structured the Brexit referendum!

Democracy is literally running via the majority, which starts at >50%. I'm certain you and others would be complaining similarly about the Brexit vote had it been 52% Remain.

The 70s referendum for staying in didn't get 75% Remain either, so really in 2016 we just rectified a democratic failure.

"If there were a referendum on reintroducing the death penalty in the UK there's a worrying chance the pros would win."

Or a worrying chance we might actually get laws that the majority of people wanted.

I don't support the death penalty, but I do believe the law should be what society wants it to be. And that is more important to me than some laws being implemented that I don't like/agree with.

If I were cherry-picking I'd have highlighted countries like Poland, Hungary and Romania, but I'm not cherry-picking and those aren't a representative sample. I highlighted France and Germany which are comparable economies. Our inflation rate isn't much different to theirs. The UK's food price index remains below that of most western European countries (our food has been very cheap so there's a much lower base to rise from). The cost of energy and fuel has driven most of the inflation, which has nothing to do with leaving the EU and everything to do with unstable supplies of fossil fuels - Spain relies very little on fossil fuels so has bucked the wider trend.

This is demonstrably not true. Occasionally there are a few empty shelves in thie supermarkets I go to, but this is not usual. Typical weekly shop can get everything I want.

I don't often use supermarkets (I prefer to support small businesses where possible) but I went into the local ASDA last week and didn't notice anything missing.

Of course there was an egg shortage in supermarkets at one point but that was because the supermarkets don't pay their suppliers enough, there was no shortage in independent retailers.

EES will automate passport control and reduce the queues at St Pancras. I feel it worth pointing out that my recent train from Vienna to Amsterdam/Brussels (so all within Schengen) was delayed by more than an hour at Freilassing where the German police held it to check the train for illegal migrants - apparently now common practice. Schengen is not as seamless as it once was.

Same

+1.

Have been to 3 different supermarkets in the past 2 weeks and have not noticed anything missing and the shelves were full.

I do expect that what is happening in the Gulf might lead to some shortages along the line, but that will probably be more stuff like TVs than FMCG like foods.

Project fear continues ...

@Whatisaflatwhite

You keep forgetting that the UK would not be able to pass the financial conditions and it requires all 27 countries agreeing to it. Every single one. The UK has not exactly made friends over the last decade there.

The UK will only start thinking about rejoining once it hits rock bottom. This will be within the next 5 years by my estimation.

The country is already severely economically damaged, with a failing infrastructure, lots of unproductive people (old and young), and high taxes on the productive (who are now choosing to work less).

The final nail will be when about 20% of the local authorities start going bankrupt (section 114) due to social care costs.

I give it 5 years or less. Then the population will have to decide if it wants to get even poorer or not.

@GasPanic

Food is not the major problem. You can substitute foods.

Now run that supply logic again with medication.

As you cannot pre enter passport/ biometric data (within EES) and the data is captured at point of entry in to the EU, i'm not sure how you think this will reduce delay?

Border control can always be re imposed at anytime, in late 2010 we were delayed entering Italy from Austria, again checking lorries for migrants.

I see a lot more empty shelves at my Supermarket than pre Covid, however, i don't know if that is due to Brexit or Supermarkets having less robust supply chains?
e.g if there are shortages within EU suppliers, they favour their own countries first, UK gets what is left.

@DdraigGoch

Next time you are in ASDA pay more attention to the provenance of the fresh food.

You will notice it comes from places like:

Peru
South Africa
Chile

Etc..

The problems with sourcing food from so far away (vs EU) is freshness. When they arrive in the UK you only have a few days before they go bad (you see this a lot now in supermarkets) vs a week previously.

That issue forces up prices. And we have less choices to boot as well.

Price rises not shortages, Asia isn't shipping less TVs to Europe, they are just going to take a few days longer to get here.

Project Fear? FFS.

Re EES

Well it will reduce waiting times to an extent eventually.

But not until everyone who wants to travel has either put in their details at thr gates and/,or ETIAS final gets going and everyone has realized they need to input their details beforehand and stump ip the fee

Provided the electronic gates work, of course. The gates that are supposed to reaf biometric passports at airports can bd glitchy enough

Just because I found this interesting I have looked at my fridge items

Cucumber - Spain
Gem lettuce - Spain
Corn on cob - Kent
Carrots - Herts U.K.
Celery - Spain

Either via Sainsbury’s or Ocado

I wish they would. They won't.
If it takes 10 years it will fit in well with my plans to retire in Greece and DD to move to Germany after uni. Instead I will be too old and DD will have settled here.

How would it benefit us to rejoin?

Once you're registered, you're registered and the data will be kept for three years. So anyone making a repeat visit during that time can scan their passport, scan their fingerprints and be on their way. There will be much less reliance upon humans to check passports and add up the dates on the stamps.

The worst delays I've had at a Eurostar terminal were at Brussels Midi. Only three booths manned and no e-gates. By contrast at Gare de Nord and St Pancras I've been able to use both British and French e-gates without a problem.

Apply to rejoin and accept the Euro as our currency. Do you see that happening?

If they have a manifesto to rejoin without a referendum the Conservative Party would simply add a manifesto commitment to leave again if re-elected.
The EU would never risk going through that again.

Oh please let them add it, it might be the only way to keep Starmer out. Not that I think the Cons will do any better at running the country but they are the least worse alternative.
In what way has leaving the EU not worked? Admittedly we had an awful leaving deal but that was because our negotiators and Politicians rolled over at every EU demand. If we had adopted a quid pro quo for every EU proposal things would be a lot better.
Meanwhile most EU countries are failing economically and voting for populist right wing parties. Here in the UK we are very very slightly better economically and are getting ready to vote in a PM who a few years ago was telling us Corbyn was our saviour.
Covid and the ludicrous over reaction in terms of lock downs and hand outs did far more damage than leaving a failing bureaucratic economic system.

I'm not that fussed about rejoining proper, but it would be nice if we could have the free movement of goods and people again, like Switzerland or Norway.

@CoatRack when considering taking a decision which will fundamentally change the nature of the country and its relationship with the rest of the world, which will significantly change everyone's lives in ways that are probably not even apparent yet, forever, I think you really need a thumping, overwhelming mandate from the population!

If we can't get that mandate, the status quo should always be the fallback position as it doesn't throw everyone's lives up in the air.

@EasternStandard

What an odd selection of food. Those come from Spain when they have capacity for it and produce enough. Due to climate change, there are now shortages which drives prices up and they have to ration the supply. They will first send nationally (Spain), export to EU, and then UK (so we dont get the freshest produce). Thats also why the UK needs to import a big % of its food supply.

Now, try that again with FRUIT.

Avocado?
Strawberries?
Raspberries?
Blueberries?
Bananas?

When you don't have enough people to pick the fruits, and greenhouses become too expensive, you have to import them from cheaper countries.

Thats where Peru, South Africa, Chile etc come in.

Yes a wise Government would have held back on Brexit until negotiated a EFTA style deal.

Unfortunately May did what was best for her party instead of the country, aided by the far right ERG.