To think Labour should add ‘getting us back in the EU’ to their election manifesto

[bluewanda]

We had the referendum, we gave Brexit a go, and nearly 9 years on, I think it’s plain for most people to see that leaving the EU was a massive mistake. Even people I know who voted for Brexit admit that now they wished they hadn’t, given the shitshow that has unfolded since. So, why not nip it in the bud and get back in the EU ASAP? If Labour would add it to their election manifesto that would speed up the process, as we’d have a mandate by the end of this year. So why don’t they?

I suspect many remainers were, like me, inclined to stay but not passionate about the EU.

I was really passionate about it. But I'm in the process of being added to the Irish overseas birth register and ultimately getting an Irish passport, so the thing that I most loved - freedom of movement - is going to be returned to me in the next year or so, and Ill be an EU citizen again, so I'm feeling quite pragmatic about it all.

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying - I agree on what happened with Cameron. That was awful; from him doing it so publicly to the UK being dragged about the Commission as a result. I thought leaving was inevitable after that - it was humiliating.

The EU has its own problems, particularly defence and diplomacy. In an unstable world, it is not exactly nimble. The decision making process is like an oil tanker. Changing direction takes too long.

Wow! who knew the Eurozone had shrunk to just 5 countries?

Across the EEA, inflation is lower too, maybe cherry pick a few out of those with higher inflation?
Its conversation about Brexit, which if you missed was the UK leaving the EU, a block of (now) 27 countries, comparisons with individual countries isn't really valid.
BTW Sweden isn't even in the Eurozone.....

Leaving the EU was a bad idea. Going through Brexit in reverse is an even worse idea. Sad to say, but I think we have to wait a generation.

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying @bombastix I agree.

Plus the EU of today is not the EU we left. It has its own issues and some of the countries are leaning more to the right whilst we'll probably turn left.

I think it's important to see what direction the EU is going in before jumping back in.

Exactly

The EU still is, no major treaty changes, but some countries have elected, into coalition, right leaning Governments but what have they actually gone and done that is "right wing" ?

Meanwhile, its the right wing Tories that take us out of Europe, impose strict border & immigration controls and and try and send migrant to central Africa, regardless of where they originated from Plus give us a level of incompetent hilarity not seen since Buster Keaton and The Art of the Gag

No one in their wildest dreams could describe Starmer and Reeves as "Left Wing"

It's actually only been 4 years since we live the EU. Not 9 years.

And Labour won't add returning to their manifesto cause they'd like to win the election.

PS I voted remain but sccept the result of the vote.

The issue of rejoin has never gone away. The remainer, alliances through the U.K. and Europe morphed into rejoin alliances when Brexit happened.

I'm a member of the alliances beavering quietly in the background. It is far more complex than just putting rejoin on the labour manifesto.

Much has been done and will continue to be until we get the 2nd referendum we should have had in 2019. That's another story as to why we didn't, I'll happily share if anyone wants to hear it.

We can rejoin the single market BTW without a referendum. Would the E U have us back? Yes, under certain conditions. Labour will rebuild towards the calling of the 2nd referendum, which won't happen in the first Labour term.

Yes, there is a plan. The issue hasn't gone away and won't.

The only reason a section of Tories wanted it was for the deep pockets. The others, like Boris, saw it as a career move that went badly wrong. He didn't want Brexit. There is enough proof of that.

Below is w brief listing of the alliances

1/ If anyone wants to know more Google for your area, "Your area I.E Leeds for Europe"

2/ VOLT U.K., which is the Pan E.U. political movement now in the U.K. to help bring people who vote different parties to come together to work on this with the same aim

3/ European Movement U.K. was set up by people like Ken Clark, Andrew Adonis, Michael Adonis, and more after brexit to work together with the alliances

4/ "E U citizenship is a permanent individual status." This is now with the upper ECHR as the removal of individual citizenship is a breach of article one.

The U.K. government did not have the right to remove E U individual citizenship of those born before we exited.

All these and more are available to find on Google

That’s fair enough. But it’s a very particular point of view. Most people don’t have that commitment to the EU.

Cherry picking? Pot, kettle, black.

The UK of course was never in the Eurozone and therefore never left it, so Brexit comparisons should be made against the EU27.

You compared a single country against an average of twenty countries with some range between them. It didn't tell the whole story. As you intended.

I’m sure there are a million strands of cross-border cooperation and agreement going on in public and private sectors. That’s always been the case, and quite right too.

But your point 4 is fascinating. Is there really an argument being made that the EU is itself a nation state capable of endowing inalienable citizenship? That would raise so many questions. Could the UK or any other member state strip a person of their national citizenship on the basis that that person is not stateless because they’re an EU citizen? What about states that ban dual citizenship - I believe Austria and Germany do?

As far as I know the EU hasn’t managed to agree accession to the ECHR. That’s a bit of an obstacle isn’t it?

And art.1 is parasitic on the first 18 articles. It has no effect in itself. Which of those other articles would be breached by removal of EU citizenship?

And, assuming the challenge succeeds, where would that generally leave nation states? Since Germany has formally rejected the supremacy of the EU in German constitutional matters, there’d be at least one very unhappy EU country!

In fact there’s something even more fundamental here. What does “permanent individual status” mean in terms of EU citizenship?

Does it mean that a nation state could never leave the EU and that the EU could never suspend or expel a state?

Or does it mean that a state could leave - stop contributing, stop obeying EU law etc - but its citizens could go on taking advantage of open borders, rights under EU law, and so on?

You can read on the case yourself at this Web address

www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/eu-citizenship-is-a-permanent-status/updates/165032#start

EU27 inflation rate is lower too.....

If i were cherry picking, i'd have highlighted Belgium, Denmark Holland, but i didn't because they are not comparable economies.

I could highlight Food inflation across EU and the UK, UK is higher in most comparable cases, as is core inflation.

Eurozone is an often used comparison because it contains EU largest economies, which is why i chose it.

Brexit means higher import charges, hence in most cases, higher inflation.

As a keen Leaver, why don't you tell us of all the benefits we have or will have?

Thank you. It is an intriguing idea.

But I have to say that I think it’s hopeless. And I see that the CJEU has thrown out the case once, so the further step being taken is an appeal. (It’s a case before the CJEU and concerns the Charter; it’s not about the ECtHR and the Convention.)

I know it doesn’t fit your agenda, but water companies were dumping shit into waterways during OUR ENTIRE period of EU membership. It didn’t start in 2016.

It’s too late. Those people should have researched more before voting as it was pretty obvious we wouldn’t benefit from this

Why would Labour do that when it doesn't give them any political advantage?!

All they really need to do when in government is to re-align the UK with the EU which is much easier to do than trying to officially rejoin.

Realignment would really make the NI Protocol a non-existent issue, for example.

There's more appetite for realignment than rejoining. 🤷‍♂️

Rejoining would be massively complicated and expensive and take longer than one parliament in any case. As others have said, there’s no electoral advantage to promising it.

You re correct, they were doing it before, .... Water companies can and have increased dumping of sewage into waterways & the sea since Brexit.
Environmental protections have decreased, they even had a vote on it in the 'commons to allow more of it.

Whether this would have happened anyway, is debatable but if it had, we'd have been in breach of EU regulations with redress in the ECJ, now there is none, the Office of Environmental Protection is another toothless but Govt controlled quango.

Aside, i love the way Covid and Ukraine are blamed for everything wrong in the UK but can you point to a EU country with almost 8m on waiting lists and no state provided dentistry?

What does re alignment mean in practice?

How would this be achieved with out SM and CU membership?

Govt has already quietly dropped things like UK safety standards in favour of the CE mark but thats a long way from seamless import/export.

Of course, the Conservatives have ruled out aligning UK laws with EU laws.

But Labour has not explicitly done likewise. They've been calling it reconnecting with the EU for a while now, but they're effectively talking about realignment, especially in terms of trade which will nullify the NI Protocol and security.

The Ireland-Northern Ireland Protocol (proper name) means the UK cannot diverge too much from the EU without causing a constitutional problem which the SNP would also happily take advantage of.

Labour want to address all of that. We'll have to wait to see the details of their realignment plans aka reconnecting the UK with the EU.

But Labour has ruled out rejoining the EU, SM and CU. Realignment would obviously be religning UK laws with EU ones whilst maintaining non-EU status.

👏Absolutely.

I don't think people realise how bad things are here.

Go into any supermarket, the shelves are half empty, worse than Covid.

So far this week I have been unable to get coffee pods, salt grinder, microwave curry, pesto, tomato puree, even cream was a struggle. We are now being told that "Brexit Rules" will mean a huge increase in the cost of fruit and veg from Europe and less choice in the supermarket.

The 90 day rule and biometric scanning will make going to the EU a bureaucratic nightmare, not to mention the time it will take at passport control.

There hasn't been one single, tangible, benefit from the whole sorry shit show.

We've truly fucked our children over.

I know it doesn't fit your agenda, but the UK was known for it's dirty beaches and waterways before joining the EU.

Once EU directive had been implemented there was sustained improvement and by 2016, 96.5% of UK bathing waters (609 out of 631 sites) passed EU standards.

Today, the tories will tell you that 95% of bathing sites still meet regulation standards however, what they won't tell you that they've reduce the number of sites tested (631 to 423) to keep those figures inflated, or that the number of 'excellent' sites has dropped and the number of 'poor' sites risen since it became apparent we were leaving the EU.

But to answer the OP's question, no I don't think we should rejoin, Brexiteers were told the implications of leaving and dismissed it as project fear. I think it's only right they live with the consequences now. I'd probably feel very different if I knew I was stuck here, mind you.