That if your male child has shoulder length hair it's reasonable to expect other kids will pass comment?

[mrsfinch6]

Dropping DS5 and DS3 off at nursery this morning when the nursery manager took me aside and wanted to “discuss an incident that happened yesterday” I was a bit confused because when I had collected them both the day before everything was fine.

The “incident” was that there is a little boy at nursery with shoulder length, curly blonde hair, and DS3 has been calling him a girl.

The parent of this child went into nursery this morning to report to the staff that my DS was calling him a girl. The nursery manager wanted my assurances that I would be firm with DS at home and have “the conversation” regarding this.

AIBU to say that if you have a 4 year old male child with long blonde hair that it is realistic to expect that other children in that age group will pass comment?

DS3 is very much of the opinion that “pink is for girls, blue is for boys, girls wear dresses and boys wear trousers etc” he only likes typical boys toys, whereas DS5 is a bit less bothered, he picked a pink scooter and is partial to a unicorn, I don’t encourage or discourage either way, however I do believe in sex not gender and whilst I appreciate there are a multitude of reasons why this child has long hair, I don’t think it’s my 3 year olds issue tbh

They are very young kids and yes I have spoken to him and reiterated that we don’t tease other kids and that it’s not kind to pass comment on others appearance but honestly? Reporting it to the nursery? Talk about extreme.

It isn't even a requirement for women to have long hair to play in women's sport.

Hair length is a fashion thing, Jesus is usually depicted with long hair, Charles II and his Cavaliers are usually depicted with long hair, 20th century pop stars who seem to view themselves as male often had long hair.

Traditionally Nuns had very short hair, so did many orthodox Jewish women. Never heard about lots of problems with them thinking they were men.

I also do not believe that a man who likes dresses is any more of a threat to women than any other man. The issue is with people who use these current trends and exploit them as a way to get into women's spaces.

Exactly

I had zero issues with Eddie Izzard until he decided that wearing dresses meant that he could occupy womens spaces

I have zero issues with men wearing makeup, wearing dresses, having long hair so long as they understand that they are still men in the same way that women in the 20s who bobbed their hair and wore trousers didn't suddenly become men

I actually meant gender when I used the word above.

There can be no confusion over sex (apart from very rare cases), but there is plenty of confusion over gender or something that is currently called gender by many people. Your unrealistic solution is to say gender isn't a thing. Mine is to reinforce/ reintroduce some gender stereotypes.

Yes like I, and others, have said, you are gender conservative not gender critical. So it seems I never missed your point after all...

On the plus side you have a whole legion of TRAs agreeing with you as their ideas wholly depend on the sort of regressive gender stereotypes you are so keen to "reintroduce"

I love how me disagreeing with gender stereotyping is "unrealistic" but your proposal that boys should have their hair cut and it will solve the issues is somehow something you are deeming realistic 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Let's go back to the 1940s. My mother lived in a small town, a factory was built producing essential war equipment. Mother was thrilled and got a job earning about 3 times what she'd earned in her previous job. One rule with the job was women had to wear trousers due to floors not being solid and people on a lower level could look up and they'd see up a woman's skirt, it was probably also a H&S issue.

A local man started wearing a dress, he said he''d always wanted to wear dresses but thought men wore trousers and women wore dresses. Well now the rules had changed and women were wearing trousers so he was wearing a dress and growing his hair.

Not statistics but still interesting, how many of us want to go back to having to wear dresses all the time? Not me that's for sure.

I don't think it matters if men wear dresses/have long hair or women wear trousers/have short hair.

I definitely wouldn't support any sort of pressure on girls to have long hair. Brushing my GDs long hair, which she hates and claims it hurts whatever we do, I just wonder why suffering for fashion has to start so young.

Surely if only girls are allowed to have long hair and like pink, this is more likely to make a boy who likes these things become confused and start thinking he must really be a girl?

@Dantedisciple

"Mine is to reinforce/ reintroduce some gender stereotypes."

You still haven't stated which ones. And you can't, because these stereotypes emerged due to inequality in society, they weren't chosen rationally. They're not rational. Have you heard yourself? 'Reintroduce some gender stereotypes'??? That's like saying the world was a better place with an appropriate amount of racism.

In your previous post gender did not exist. In this post it seems it all you talk about.

Until you stop labelling and pigeonholing people rather than listen to their arguments you will continue to miss the point.

Think everyone needs to calm down a bit. He’s 3!!! My 3 year old says I’m a “good boy” all the time. Big difference is “you look like a girl na na na!” and “that took the toy I wanted”. All about context.

Transvestitism is often a fetish and those with it often have other fetishes and perversions, too. They're arguably more likely to have committed sexual crime than other prisoners, at least, or serious violent crime. https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

Of course some of this might be explained by male prisoners thinking women's prisons might be more cushy, so deciding to declare themselves women and try and get in a women's prison for safety, comfort, and maybe access to women.

Well as a woman I don't want to be hugged by female colleagues any more than male colleagues. There are certain individuals I will hug but they could be male or female and it depends solely on whether I like and trust them, not on their sex. I think your viewpoint is really strange. Of course it isn't discrimination not to want to be hugged by work colleagues.

Either way , I really don't see the relevance of hair length. A man with long hair is no different to one with short hair on my experience. They are not more feminine or more likely to give unwanted attention etc.

Do you also take issue with men changing nappies or women working in science?

To initially mistake a boy with long hair for a girl is understandable but your son now knows he's a boy and is still calling him a girl after being corrected. You're going to raise a bully if you're not careful.

@porridgeisbae

'They're arguably more likely to have committed sexual crime than other prisoners'

The word 'arguably' is doing a lot of bigoted heavy lifting in this sentence.

Men used to just not think of that idea because it wasn't at all a thing culturally years ago.

I think the 'arguably' softens it :)

The concern is less the child, and more the OP’s comments that she has “quite rightly” taught her son that boys can’t have long hair and girls can’t wear trousers. I’d be concerned about that regardless of what her child has said to another.

Nope still not missing your point, still not stupid, can still read, thanks

It doesn't matter how many time you say I am missing your point, that still won't make it true.

I, and other, are disagreeing with your point. That's not the same thing as missing your point.

And given you are the one who insisted on discussing gender rather than sex I'm not sure how you expect me to respond without using the word. But I suppose it did allow you to throw a very weak argument my way. Well done I mentioned gender so I can't possibly be gender critical.

Yes and given boys used to wear pink, and boys used to have long hair and yet gender confusion wasn't a thing years ago it would seem that wearing pink or having long hair is entirely irrelevant

Most people who commit serious crime have mental health issues and or neglectful or abusive childhoods, often drug and alcohol problems etc. I guess gender dysphoria is more likely to be associated with these issues - so that probably explains the correlation along with a proportion who do it to access women.

However liking some traditionally stereotypically feminine things does not have anything to do with being transgender. You are effectively saying that a man who likes to have long hair or wear a dress is trans which is absolutely not the case. Where does the line get drawn? Is it ok for men to wear jewellery for example? It's all nonsense and window dressing apart from aspects directly related to sexual activities

I have had enough of hair too.

I think having a blanket policy (which you have explained you don't, but I have at least three colleagues who do) at work of hugging women but not men is discriminatory. Happy to hug a stranger I know nothing about but only if she is a woman. In the corridors of power, which I anticipate women dominating, reusing to greet men in the same warm fashion you greet women would be sex based discrimination. Just as not inviting women to golf-days or work drinks is.

But before every jumps on me. In that post which was some little time age, I said women should be allowed to so discriminate. I gave it as an example of where women need greater rights/ freedoms.

I encourage men to be proper/active fathers and women to be scientists. Strange that you assume I am an ultra conservative.

Well exactly, boys had long hair in the past, transgender was much rarer. It's clearly nothing to do with hair!

I do think everyone is being a bit dramatic here. My husband has long blonde hair and he's been asked by little kids why he has girl hair. When I was little I apparently tugged my mum's sleeve and said "mum why does that lady have furry legs like dad?!" It's not malicious, it's just typical little kid curiosity combined with fairly typical gender stereotypes that obviously exist in our society.

Now if this kid gets to 16 and is cutting about calling men with long hair big Nancy poofs or assuming all short haired women must be lesbians then there'll be an issue. But there's no evidence at all that this is where that's going, he's just being 3 and curious and filterless. It happens. A firm reminder to not comment on other people's appearances and why is all that's needed.

The point is that the Op hasn’t given a firm reminder not to comment on other people’s appearances. She’s instead in a stop that the nursery think there’s an issue with her son “rightly” thinking boys shouldn’t have long hair.

There’s very much evidence that’s where things are going, because the Op’s attitude suggests that sexist stereotyping is very much ingrained in her.

I don't assume anything, I am just interested in the logic of your position that hair length causes issues but other breaking down of traditional gender barriers doesn't.

I think this hugging at work thing you mention is unusual - who wants to hug complete strangers anyway? How do you know it's a policy - have you discussed it with them? Are you sure it isn't specific to you and the particular other men there? I do think it's unprofessional to treat colleagues differently in this way actually so wouldn't support this if the different treatment is happening in the workplace rather than on a night out for example.

I mean her replies state that she has another son who likes pink and unicorns, and that she has in fact had a conversation with her three year old that boys can have long hair. Doesn't sound like a rampant bigot to me.

If she's got some old fashioned views herself it doesn't appear she's enforcing them in her children, people are just running with that idea because she thinks the nursery were a bit dramatic. I don't think they were, personally, it's good they want to nip any teasing in the bud quickly. I do think the 26 page pile on here calling a 3 year old little boy a bully is tremendously dramatic though.