9 year old lying finally told truth

[IWantOut29]

I've rewrote this a few times now and now I'm crying because despite the fact shes now telling the truth about lying i'm worried strangers on the internet are going to think I'm lying 🤦‍♀️ I dont even know what I want from posting this, I've barely spoke to anyone aside from family about all of this because I've been so ashamed and paranoid people would think it was true. Now shes finally told the truth I still feel anxious and worried

Sorry, this is going to be long but basically my DD9 has been accusing me of hurting her for the last 18 months. The accusations have gotten bigger and bigger. She is suspected Autism/ADHD and is on the neuro referal pathway. She hurts herself at school frequently, vomits most days and has threatened to kill herself more times than I can count at school

We are on a child protection plan because although it has never been proven nor has she ever had any Mark's, because she has been consistent in her stories they said she was at risk of harm.

We were put on the plan during the 6 weeks holidays and I was really upset as school would of been able to prove that one accusation was 100% not true, but they couldnt ask they didnt attend the meeting as it was in the 6 weeks holidays. She said that I beat her up on holiday and slammed her head against the walls.... I did not go on holiday with her and she stayed in a teepee/tent kind of thing

I asked why when there was no proof or injuries or Mark's and they said because she had been consistent with what she had been saying she was at risk of harm.

Our social worker has been absolutely amazing and I have a good relationship with her. My DD recently had 8 weeks off school as she accused a teacher of hurting her too and there was a big investiagtion. During this time she was seen regularly by a counsellor and her social worker, plus she goes to the local community club and has days out with them.

She has recently gone back to school on a phased return and on the 2nd day I went to pick her up at the agreed time and could hear her crying in the safeguarding teachers room. I couldnt hear what she was saying, just heard her getting really upset saying she wanted to go home and the teacher saying she couldnt go home if what she was saying was true

This time, she had a meeting with an advocacy person about the allegation with the teacher and told her that I hadnt let her see anyone during the time she was off school, I didnt let her speak to her social worker alone, she doesnt have a quilt at home and that I beat her up on her birthday and punched her in the face..... I have loads of pictures/videos of her birthday and we were out all day with family too,

So I sent the social worker pictures/videos of days before/after and during her birthday, she could prove that she had seen DD alone and that DD has been to counselling sessions alone and that she has been to the clubs and days out alone.

The police said they were not going to investigate any further and were happy to leave it with social services but they did want to go round to the house to check DD had quilt and a pillow ect.

She spoke to the police and our social worker and told them all that it wasnt true, she thought because she was still having meetings about it that they wanted her to say she was being hurt, she didnt want them to call her a liar, she doesnt like the meetings because they always go silent and just look at her. She didnt want safeguarding teacher in the meeting with her and told our social worker it was because she didnt want the teacher to know she was lying

Me, school, social and the police have all said she wouldnt get in trouble for lying, we are all here to keep her safe and the police said to me after that hopefully seeing the police in person might show her that there are real consequences to her words. They also told me that she said to the social worker " I hold all the dominance now" and when asked what she meant she said "in the house, I hold all the power now" which the police said shows that she knows she has power behind her words

Unfortunatly they still havnt had the strategory meeting, it was supposed to be on the Wednesday, then the Thursday then the Friday but each day got moved again as someone or other couldnt attend. Soni assume it will be Monday now and I'm so anxious about it

I asked the police what would happen now as I was worried I was going to get arrested and they said I wouldnt be arrested, they wouldnt be investigating further and were leaving it with social. I am a very anxious person and said to them are you sure because I'm worried theres going to be an ambush and they said they had to tell me beforehand what they were going to say in the meeting and that they wernt going to do anything

My social worker has been brilliant all the way through this, has said how well we get on what a good bond we have, how happy and relaxed she is around me, has said it seems to be a school issue as it's only in school she says these things and that it was weird that she hadnt said any of these things to her, her counsellor or anyone else and said it to a complete stranger she had never met before.

I'm so relieved shes told the truth but I just feel so sad and empty about it. It's been such a stressful awful time, I've lost so much weight through the stress of it all, I havnt slept properly for months.

I feel horrible for her that its recorded down that she has told lies. With the police aswell shes 9 years old. What if somthing happens to her when shes older and she isnt believed because she told fibs when she was little?

I've felt horrible all the way throughout all of this. With the police the other day she looked so uncomfortable and I wanted to stroke her arm and give her a cuddle for reassurance but I didnt want the police to think I was trying to silence her. She kept looking at me for reassurance when they were asking her questions and I had to ask her not to look at me as I was worried the police would take that as she was scared to speak infront of me. I said all of this infront of the police and they said no not at all, sit with her it's fine.

I dont know why I'm so upset about it, shes told the truth now, social have always been really supportive all the way through this, I dont have to do anything on this plan it has all been arou f support for me DD, they havnt asked me to do a single thing

I cant stop crying tonight I dont even know what I. Hoping to gain from posting this, I just need to get it out of me

If you got to the end thank you for reading,

This is very outing so I may well ask mumsnet to remove it at some point,

The daughter obviously already feels horrendous, she doesn’t need to feel worse. And shame is rarely a useful emotion, especially in a young child who doesn’t have the capacity to fully understand herself and her own behaviour, never mind the real world consequences of what she has said.

@IWantOut29 it sounds like your daughter has as yet undiagnosed neuro divergence.

What happens with these children sometimes is that they have an innate feeling of being different, they don’t understand the world around them as much as they appear to. Children tend to internalise their experiences (for example, they frequently blame themselves for things like parents getting divorced) and when how, and what, they feel doesn’t match up with what they are expected to think and feel, they think there is something wrong with them.

Kids can’t think their way through this, they don’t understand WHY they feel bad (and often shame) so they cast about for a solid external reason for it- and if they can’t find one sometimes they manufacture one.

If you were abusing your daughter, people would expect and understand her negative and unhappy feelings- she would have a space for how she feels to be validated, and it would make more sense to her.

Its been horrible for you, anyone would be upset and feel betrayed and be bloody terrified in your situation.

Id focus on getting her thoroughly assessed asap, so you and she can understand where her issues lie, and then some child appropriate therapy (music/play/art etc) so that she can process her feelings.

Yes, very – it's a big part of my job/job training! Strongly disagree with your blanket statement for many reasons:

1. It's a commonly held myth that autistic people totally lack empathy, theory of mind, etc.

There is indeed some evidence for this, which must be taken into consideration, but the blanket belief is much exaggerated and stemming from an outdated "Other-ing" approach by scientific studies of the 70s-00s.

2. Ultimately, while society itself must also become more inclusive, we want autistic children/people to be able to function in wider society & life.

The most common example in my workplace is teaching high-functioning, intelligent boys with autism not to molest or sexually assault Mummy, female teachers, their classmates (if they're ready for merged classes) or other females in public.

They don't get a free pass to keep hurting someone, OR to behave in ways that potentially damage themselves and their own lives. It is not good to lie to put Mummy in jail, as this will hurt both Mummy and themselves.

As someone whose institution has had quite a few police visits, there are GENUINELY real world consequences for things. While we don't want to scare our charges unnecessarily, we want to protect and inform them at a level they are capable of responding to. OP's daughter's words about the power she holds suggests she is capable of cognitively understanding casual relationships at least.

Again, there are appropriate ways to teach this (eg not ABA IMHO).

3. We also provide the support they need (eg if having meltdown, or behaving vindictively or violently) BUT there's a huge difference between unconditional support/safe space & positive reinforcement for undesirable behaviour.

For my boys who like to randomly grab my boobies, we give them stress balls and other stim toys.

We also often kindly & gently work with them through their meltdowns or shame/guilt which are not productive emotions in the extreme (so, again, it is a myth that autistic people have no theory of mind, empathy or emotions). But we don't fuss and coo over them every time they molest, as that is strong positive reinforcement.

This sounds so tough - my dd has done some similar things, although not as severe lies.

You say you're on the ND pathway - I would also ask about starting the process for an EHCP, it sounds like your DD is very unhappy at school and it's possible that she'll struggle more at secondary. ASD girls tend to fall apart around puberty and you may have school refusal and either need a lot of intervention in secondary or even a special school. I know this sounds dramatic - but I wish we'd taken more notice of warning signs with my daughter when she was 9

Shame is a terrible emotion. Maybe posters mean guilt rather than shame but shaming a child has deep seated, often lifelong, and very negative consequences. No one should be shamed. However, in this situation, guilt is not likely to be useful either.

Absolutely.

Sorry, CAUSAL not casual!

Two clear things
You say she wouldn't say it abput your mum and that you've never properly told her off for it, and the dominance point. She desperately needs string boundaries from you. She needs to know you know she us lying and find it appalling, how wrong this is, the consequences it has brought. You are walking on eggshells around her and it's very confusing for her. Why won't mum tell me off? Why is she letting me cause this trouble?

Second, related, is the dv. Are you or her scared she's like her dad? Do you try to keep on the right side of her because she has some similar traits like facial expressions? Perhaps subconsciously. She's trying to exert control possibly due to past experiences.

I’m so sorry to hear what you are going through @IWantOut29
You are probably feeling a whole wave of emotions now that the tension is gone and you could finally relax again. I don’t want to be cruel when I say this though:
This is not the end of this problem and you need professional support 100%, not just your daughter. She will lie again. There is a pervasive pattern to her behaviour and she will default to lies and attention seeking behaviour until she finds a way to deal with her negative emotions. You need to protect yourself and your DS here, not just your DD. I understand that you want to reassure her that there won’t be consequences because you are relieved that she finally admitted the truth, but you will just be sugarcoating the problem. There will be consequences, absolutely. There will be consequences in school and she simply won’t be believed. There will be consequences with friends and any type of relationship because she will not be believed and because parents won’t want their children to be friends with her, etc etc.
Make it clear to her that there will be consequences when she lies, and make sure that you will follow through with this.

It’s her comment about holding control that stood out for me and which is concerning.

I had some similar problems with my DS at the time. He lied, manipulated, and caused a lot of harm to others (not just me). He was subsequently diagnosed with a personality disorder and looking back I made so many mistakes by trying to be nice and gentle. In my son’s case there was almost certainly a genetic element to it so please consider if you have other people in your family that displayed concerning behaviour like this.

We have been in a similar situation. We tried everything to make it stop, therapy, love bombing, me stepping out of the picture ( I'm step mum) but nothing worked.
The lies grew bigger and bigger to the point I wouldn't be alone with them to protect my own reputation and mental health. They aren't currently part of our daily life now at their request. I know it's because some dreadful behaviour was called out and the lies around it proved and not believed so it's easier for them to not see us because we can't be controlled.
They have no friends, no normal teenage life. My husband's ex has no life either because she's trapped in a relationship that's abusive and everytime she attempts to date or have a life now the manipulation is ramped up and they end up with self harm and other horrible threats.
You sound like a lovely mum, take all the help offered and don't let her have the power. We messed up there, she knew we were a little scared of her and what she could say and it's not ended well for us, we thought we were doing the right thing by almost pandering to it and keeping things calm. In reality we enabled the behaviour and should have taken back control a long time ago.
We too had allegations against teachers at one point of neglecting her.

If this person is ever in my house again there will be cameras up.

I've never read anything like this. You've really been put through the ringer, OP, and I'm not sure how I'd have coped
I don't mean this unkindly, but is your daughter mentally well enough to even be at school? The poor teacher who she accused of assaulting her. What a nightmare

I think it's going to be an ongoing process for your daughter to be ok. Best of luck.

Something similar happened when my DD was 9. I was on my way home from work and got a call from social services saying DD had made allegations about me. She'd told her teacher than I beat her and made her sleep on the floor as she didn't have a bed at home. None of it was true. I was so upset and went straight to the school to speak with the family worker and put support in place for DD. She had private counselling for a while, SS found no concerns and I just get a call about once a year to check up on us.

I remember that evening sitting crying on the sofa while DD fed me chocolates and told me she was sorry and wouldn't do it again. She wasn't in trouble but I don't think it was a bad thing that she could see how much her words had hurt me.

I hope everything is resolved and you and your DD are both supported.

OP, there are communities of parents of neurodiverse children that will have experienced this. I’m in a group and posts come up about parents who are in similar situations.

I recommend this. Not only does the website have loads of parenting resources, the fb community is supportive and ensures that children are understood, not demonised, for any challenging behaviour. Many parents will likely have been through similar.

I’d be worried about the effects on your son so I’d try to bring some sort of closure by saying DD told lies, everyone know her stories are lies and DD has apologised. I don’t want her to tell lies again. You (DS) and I are fine, we’re not in any trouble.
You can point out police and SS are there to help. Pick your phrases and stick to them to reassure your son.
Don’t mention anyone being taken away, that is incredibly scary for children.

And while you’ve got the support of a SW can you push for DDs assessments ?

But you also said:

""I have never punished her for lying about me and I still kiss/cuddle her tell her I love her everyday" – to me this is like extra positive reinforcement for lying. Tell awful lies, get more lovely cuddles & attention"

Withholding love as a form of punishment is never OK, but it can be catastrophic for a ND child. They're not getting cuddled because they lie, it's just that affection isn't being withheld.

You also mentioned on another post that they should be told that their mummy could be taken away, they'll be orphaned etc.

While a ND child needs to understand actions have consequences, sometimes things are beyond their scope of understanding. Theory of mind is absolutely a thing, it's not a myth. Of course many ND children grow out of it, but it can have an impact on processing and understanding especially in a younger child.

If my DS - who probably has a mental age of around 8 or 9 - was told that he was going to not have a mummy any more because of something he did, he'd be completely traumatised and that wouldn't go away. He is still traumatised from certain throwaway comments made by the school when he was 5 (he's now 14). There's no "gentle" way to tell a ND child this and there's the risk of just increasing the overall anxiety - which in turn could exacerbate the problems.

I completely agree there's no blanket approach, and not all autistic children are the same. However, there are elements of your post which reek of ABA theory which you say you don't like, but you're describing making an autistic child "pass" in an NT world rather than really understanding what's going on or what the need is. Also the use of the phrase "high-functioning" - not something that's supposed to be used any more as it's misleading...

Of course it's not about indulging a child's unhealthy or inappropriate behaviour, that's not acceptable either. But there are alternatives to just scaring the child, especially at just 9 years old.

Positive reinforcement for desirable behaviours is a much better approach than punishment, or punitive measures for unwanted behaviours. It's fine to talk about undesirable behaviours and what's OK, but by talking about far-reaching consequences that a child doesn't have capacity to fully process, you're risking doing far more damage as they'll hold onto that thought. And very often, they'll hold onto the negative element of the thought in isolation - "I'm going to lose my mummy" without relating it to the action that caused it. What that means is you get a child who's extremely anxious that they could randomly lose their mummy at any given moment. It doesn't matter how gently or carefully you explain it, there's a real and genuine risk that all they'll remember is the negative consequence without fully comprehending why this is the case.

You need a faster diagnosis, go private if you can. This will mean more help at school. I agree with PPs that she needs to see a child psychologist, particularly because of the dominance comment and the possible impact of the dv.

My son is autistic but frequently said things like ‘you are hurting me’ and the response was concern. He can’t distinguish at times between fiction and non fiction and it’s a million times worse when it’s based on fiction eg titanic

he told his school I had beaten him up with a huge stick - he was put on child in need- no marks and he had been reading a non fiction story when someone was hit with sticks. The lovely social worker came to see him numerous times and saw and witness numerous things where he just said ‘I see where this has come from’ on one occasion we were going out the front door with the social worker and the guy accidentally stood on my son’s foot as he suddenly stopped - my son he turned around and said ‘you’ve just stamped on my foot and crippled me’ 😱🤦‍♀️with my son it is literal meaning, word issues and confusing reality and not being able to read intention etc

we’ve done a lot of work with him about what you can and can’t say eg someone says they don’t want to play with you - you don’t go round saying they are your enemy and that they have said they will never speak to you again etc

for me I ignored the things he told about me and just corrected the narrative. He’s much much better now but we still do techniques.

for instance he will take things literally eg the social worker made him a worry house and told him to put stuff in and he told him he wanted to put in the time mummy took all his stuffed toys and binned them - this must of been a dream as the social worker saw the hundreds on his bed etc

there is a power dynamic and this is where you need help ……

This may be an unpopular opinion but there would have been very serious consequences if my child had told such horrific lies about me or anyone else. They certainly wouldn't be getting compassion and understanding from me.

Not telling kids off for these sorts of things gives the green light to continue doing it.

@Mummyoflittledragon agree conpletely. I would be extremely angry with a child who could have lied her way into care. Whatever her reasoning. She sounds like she gets far too much attention for negative behaviours and is on serious danger of blowing your lives up. I’m so sorry OP I would be extremely traumatised by this too.

I mean the girl said ‘I’m the dominant one’. This is a very serious and very dangerous power imbalance. My kid would get the a very serious talking to and consequences follow up.

For most Autistic people, and especially children, home is our safe space. It seems to me that your dd is trying to hold it together at school (which is generally a very stressful place for Autistic kids) and she's struggling to process her feelings while there. Because home is safe, she feels able to make up home scenarios that would cause her to feel the same way, but she's unable to see the consequences of doing so. She feels out of control at school and is desperately trying to hide that, hence the dominance/control comments, it's just another form of masking how she feels

As usual on MN, there's lots of comments from PP who ignore the Autism and give advice based on NT kids. That's why I think finding a Child Pyschologist who is trained in ND is important and could really help your dd work through her feelings

I'd also consider moving schools, but only if your dd agrees. I hated my first primary school and felt very afraid there... it took me over 6 months to agree to moving but I did when I was 8, and it was a fresh start that made the last few years of primary easier for me

I do agree entirely. It's not ok to lie! You have my every sympathy OP and I hope that whatever has caused this, a need for attention or whatever, is soon resolved.

@AriannasGuitarCase My DD has autism but I would not tolerate this behaviour at all.

My child is awaiting assessment under CAMHS for ASD and ADHD. Last year she told her teacher 'mummy smacks me for punishment'!!! Which I don't at all! Not ever! Luckily, the teacher just said 'we've got to tell you that she said it' and that was all. I assume they've recorded that somewhere though! Luckily, she had also accused staff at the school of various things, so I think they must know that what she said wasn't true. I was very upset and scared that she'd make up more lies and I actually really yelled at her, tells her that if she lies about things like that that she might get taken away and made to live with strangers... then I was really scared she'd tell school I said that, so it was all just very stressful!!!!! My youngest who is 2 often says things that aren't true, like if someone says she can't have something she'll say 'xxxx just bit me!'. So I dread to think what she might say, when she starts preschool!!

@wowokay Please note I never mentioned lack of empathy or emotions. Theory of mind and autism is extremely complex, contested and often misunderstood debate. Some authors say it’s a false explanation (eg Gernsbacher et al Failures of the Claim That Autistic People Lack a Theory of Mind. Arch Sci Psychol. 2019;7(1):102-118). Others continue to support it whilst acknowledging its heterogeneous range of symptoms (eg Rosello et al Theory of Mind Profiles in Children With Autism Spectrum Disorder: Adaptive/Social Skills and Pragmatic Competence. Front Psychol. 2020 Sep 17;11:56).

Even if many researchers do not know what theory of mind is or agree on a definition, what is evident is how autism results in many struggles with information processing and social communication including interpreting social and emotional cues in others. In this way, ToM is useful shorthand for explaining that autistic children (NAACALT) may not understand consequences with an impaired ability to attribute mental states to others, making it harder to explain and predict behavior ie them not understanding why you being grabbed is not acceptable.

In any event, I still very much stand by the advice for anyone to tell an autistic child that ‘mummy may go to jail’ because of the child’s lies is harmful. There are, other, more supportive and helpful approaches.

I think she is attention seeking. Some children just seem need more adult attention and making up massive lies is one way to do this. That is why she's fine at home with you and is confident singing and dancing so the attention is on her.

One way to deal with her hurting your ds is to ignore her when she does something to him and completely give your ds lots of attention to make him feel better.

Actually she may do fine as an adult as she has the skills of an influencer or minor celeb. The important thing is she gets the attention not for bad stuff