9 year old lying finally told truth

[IWantOut29]

I've rewrote this a few times now and now I'm crying because despite the fact shes now telling the truth about lying i'm worried strangers on the internet are going to think I'm lying 🤦‍♀️ I dont even know what I want from posting this, I've barely spoke to anyone aside from family about all of this because I've been so ashamed and paranoid people would think it was true. Now shes finally told the truth I still feel anxious and worried

Sorry, this is going to be long but basically my DD9 has been accusing me of hurting her for the last 18 months. The accusations have gotten bigger and bigger. She is suspected Autism/ADHD and is on the neuro referal pathway. She hurts herself at school frequently, vomits most days and has threatened to kill herself more times than I can count at school

We are on a child protection plan because although it has never been proven nor has she ever had any Mark's, because she has been consistent in her stories they said she was at risk of harm.

We were put on the plan during the 6 weeks holidays and I was really upset as school would of been able to prove that one accusation was 100% not true, but they couldnt ask they didnt attend the meeting as it was in the 6 weeks holidays. She said that I beat her up on holiday and slammed her head against the walls.... I did not go on holiday with her and she stayed in a teepee/tent kind of thing

I asked why when there was no proof or injuries or Mark's and they said because she had been consistent with what she had been saying she was at risk of harm.

Our social worker has been absolutely amazing and I have a good relationship with her. My DD recently had 8 weeks off school as she accused a teacher of hurting her too and there was a big investiagtion. During this time she was seen regularly by a counsellor and her social worker, plus she goes to the local community club and has days out with them.

She has recently gone back to school on a phased return and on the 2nd day I went to pick her up at the agreed time and could hear her crying in the safeguarding teachers room. I couldnt hear what she was saying, just heard her getting really upset saying she wanted to go home and the teacher saying she couldnt go home if what she was saying was true

This time, she had a meeting with an advocacy person about the allegation with the teacher and told her that I hadnt let her see anyone during the time she was off school, I didnt let her speak to her social worker alone, she doesnt have a quilt at home and that I beat her up on her birthday and punched her in the face..... I have loads of pictures/videos of her birthday and we were out all day with family too,

So I sent the social worker pictures/videos of days before/after and during her birthday, she could prove that she had seen DD alone and that DD has been to counselling sessions alone and that she has been to the clubs and days out alone.

The police said they were not going to investigate any further and were happy to leave it with social services but they did want to go round to the house to check DD had quilt and a pillow ect.

She spoke to the police and our social worker and told them all that it wasnt true, she thought because she was still having meetings about it that they wanted her to say she was being hurt, she didnt want them to call her a liar, she doesnt like the meetings because they always go silent and just look at her. She didnt want safeguarding teacher in the meeting with her and told our social worker it was because she didnt want the teacher to know she was lying

Me, school, social and the police have all said she wouldnt get in trouble for lying, we are all here to keep her safe and the police said to me after that hopefully seeing the police in person might show her that there are real consequences to her words. They also told me that she said to the social worker " I hold all the dominance now" and when asked what she meant she said "in the house, I hold all the power now" which the police said shows that she knows she has power behind her words

Unfortunatly they still havnt had the strategory meeting, it was supposed to be on the Wednesday, then the Thursday then the Friday but each day got moved again as someone or other couldnt attend. Soni assume it will be Monday now and I'm so anxious about it

I asked the police what would happen now as I was worried I was going to get arrested and they said I wouldnt be arrested, they wouldnt be investigating further and were leaving it with social. I am a very anxious person and said to them are you sure because I'm worried theres going to be an ambush and they said they had to tell me beforehand what they were going to say in the meeting and that they wernt going to do anything

My social worker has been brilliant all the way through this, has said how well we get on what a good bond we have, how happy and relaxed she is around me, has said it seems to be a school issue as it's only in school she says these things and that it was weird that she hadnt said any of these things to her, her counsellor or anyone else and said it to a complete stranger she had never met before.

I'm so relieved shes told the truth but I just feel so sad and empty about it. It's been such a stressful awful time, I've lost so much weight through the stress of it all, I havnt slept properly for months.

I feel horrible for her that its recorded down that she has told lies. With the police aswell shes 9 years old. What if somthing happens to her when shes older and she isnt believed because she told fibs when she was little?

I've felt horrible all the way throughout all of this. With the police the other day she looked so uncomfortable and I wanted to stroke her arm and give her a cuddle for reassurance but I didnt want the police to think I was trying to silence her. She kept looking at me for reassurance when they were asking her questions and I had to ask her not to look at me as I was worried the police would take that as she was scared to speak infront of me. I said all of this infront of the police and they said no not at all, sit with her it's fine.

I dont know why I'm so upset about it, shes told the truth now, social have always been really supportive all the way through this, I dont have to do anything on this plan it has all been arou f support for me DD, they havnt asked me to do a single thing

I cant stop crying tonight I dont even know what I. Hoping to gain from posting this, I just need to get it out of me

If you got to the end thank you for reading,

This is very outing so I may well ask mumsnet to remove it at some point,

Did you at any point explain to her the consequences of her lies? Eg that she would be taken away in the care system, may never see her family again, you go to prison etc? Or did she just think it was fun and a game to get attention?

Hmmmm.
a possible thought/explanation.

daughter sounds like she is struggling. Situations are becoming too hard/complex for her to manage. At somepoint she told a lie, and it got her what she needed- some 1-1 time with an adult who invested completely in listening to her, took her away from the social and sensory demands that were too much.
As a 9 year old, possibly ND, child she has a weak sense of consequences, time etc.
what she does know- school can be frightening, and she found a coping strategy. Now other coping strategies are in place, she doesn’t feel she needs to use it.

Thats good to know for the teacher!

I understand the reasoning behind investigating such stories and claims but your poor little girl and your family have been victims of all this when it could have been dealt with a quick gentle conversation to clear up and clarify any stories and then a short sentence to her every time “stop being so ridiculous, what you’re saying is silly” They used a sledgehammer to swat a fly.

Yes this, I'm worried for the poor ds who seems to be lost amongst all of this.
He was also there for the dv, he's upset at school, op says the dd hurts and scares him.

Would he not also have been spoken to by safeguarding re home especially if he's been so upset at school?

Jesus Christ, I know this is unkind but I would just give the child away. You're a saint.

‘Told fibs’ wow. These are career ending accusations she’s made. It’s way bigger than that

I'd absolutely ask for a child psychologist for your DD Op. Obviously her ND complicates the situation but the underlying cause of the lies needs addressing. Your DD is jealous of her DB and he could be next, you can forgive her for yourself but you need to protect yourself and your DS

Actually I'm a huge believer in positive approaches to tackle problems, positive emotional reassurance & reinforcement, etc. I don't think shame & fear are good solutions at all.

But: "I have never punished her for lying about me and I still kiss/cuddle her tell her I love her everyday" – to me this is like extra positive reinforcement for lying. Tell awful lies, get more lovely cuddles & attention.

She is only 9 but still old enough to learn that lies have:

1. emotional impact on other humans. You're human, not her emotional punching bag/toilet bowl. You're allowed to tell het you're hurt, resentful and disappointed.

2. real consequences. I don't think she fully realises that if Mummy goes to jail she won't have a mummy. Maybe a neutral 3rd party should tell her that.

@HereWeGo22 what an incredibly harrowing time you and your son have had. I'm SO pleased to read that things are getting better now. Xxx

One thing that struck me is that it seems that the lying happens when she’s overwhelmed in the school meetings. Could you help her find a way to express that she is feeling overwhelmed and that is a better way of getting what she needs? I think focusing on what would be a more appropriate response might help. She does need to know how serious the lying is but she needs an alternative way of communicating.

Best wishes OP. Do you have help from ASD specialists? I have a young relative who likely has ASD. She will make up things and just sit and stare as the lies are acted upon. It is really concerning to be around. It is very different from the usual things kids come out with. Please protect your son as much as possible. He needs to know it is not his fault and have strategies. Growing up with a sibling with ASD can be frightening and lonely.

I think first and foremost she should be working with people who understand her unique situation (ASD + DV trauma).

I have no idea what is the best way to deal with it all, but some of the advice on here (not yours specifically) frightens me because it could do so much more harm to a girl who is struggling. I have no idea if somebody else telling her that she won't have a mummy is the best thing for her or not but I think before anything like this is done, and expert needs to be consulted.

Yes definitely believe in specialist approach, and the message has to be delivered in a suitable way. But just to clarify I wasn't going for "shock factor", but realistically letting her know before she really messes her own life up by turning herself into an orphan.

You’ve had some helpful insight and advice from @SpidersAreShitheads and @HereWeGo22

Absolutely ignore offering advice that is irrelevant and harmful for a neurodiverse child. Posters are putting too much emphasis on the dominance aspect as if she’s some 9 year old sociopath. She’s not. She’s an ASD/AuADHD child who needs help to learn to soothe and regulate herself and she will not have theory of mind. The latter is the reason she’s unaware of the impact of her lies. It’s certainly not intended to hurt you.

She can be helped to better understand how others may interpret her actions but you will also have to be careful how you do this as she will take what you say very literally. There’s lots of resources now on how ASD is expressed in girls/women that are really very helpful. Best of luck @IWantOut29 as it’s not easy but you’ve done a brilliant job at parenting under incredible stress.

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@wowokay same

@IWantOut29 it's a very common thing for children who have experienced trauma to tell lies. My DD is adopted and has told similar lies - because of her background social work have taken a different path with us rather than going down a child protection process but it's still very difficult.

I'm thinking that she's been more affected by domestic abuse than anyone has realised - have any of her disclosures mirrored things that might have happened when you were with your ex? Not necessarily tracking exactly but thinking about how she would have understood things when she was smaller? The way kids experience trauma and remember trauma is complicated because of their very natural trauma responses which mix up memories and can be very scary.

I'd be looking for some support for her and your son that specialised in trauma. I'd also at home help her to understand what she might have seen, heard or been aware of - have you ever spoken to her about your relationship with your ex, and having to flee DV?

My DD was making allegations that her dad had hurt her (he hadn't, I was with them at each time the incidents were alleged to have taken place). Part of it was very mixed up memories of what had happened in her early years, part of it was the attention that came from other services being involved, part of it was recreating the feelings she had at particular times in her life. It's hard but if you understand how children react to trauma, her lying makes complete sense.

In saying that, I ended up having some very direct conversations with my daughter about what she was doing and the potential impact (she might be moved to another family, her brother might be removed too, I would lose my job (social worker), dad would be asked to leave home). We looked for therapy for her - she's doing therapeutic life story work which has made a huge different, because she's learning how to make sense of the things she's experienced. There are lots of resources online that are worth looking at - google trauma children lying and you'll see loads of pages that explain the links and give good ideas on how to deal with it.

Could you offer to dress her and treat her like a baby/ younger child so she feels love if she sees this is what love looks like? Mine still wants me to put her 'in the love basket' at times ( cross my legs and sit her in it and dress her. It is close contact and reminds them of being babies.

Thanks @Grimchmas this is why I had to post something positive for OP. I tried to keep my post short but it wasn't, but I could have said so much more on our situation.
I never thought we would be where we are now. Don't get my wrong my son's needs are really difficult to manage still, he needs help with everything, but I'm no longer doing it alone or being blamed and accused.

I was in a position where I really did believe I was going to lose him on the lies of others. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.

@IWantOut29 you really need to push for help for your daughter. We started with the Psychotherapist as CAMHS wanted to go down the route of it being family related. Within minutes we were told they could help us as we didn't fit their remit. The Psychiatrist and recently educational psychologist have been eye opening for us. It took a while for the Psychiatrist to even scratch the surface of my son's trauma from school and he will he working with them for a long time. Get your DD help as soon as you can

Thank you to the people who are sharing stories about why some autistic people lie so much. I have a work colleague who lies like it's going out of fashion, to the point where I have a mental filter now when she talks to me that flags around 50% immediately as "definitely lies" and around 30% as "proceed with caution, this may be lies". She is also excessively controlling. It is EXHAUSTING and relentless. This thread is helping me to understand a bit more why she is like that. It makes sense to me that autistic people can seek to control an otherwise overwhelming and confusing world. Heck, most of us humans and animals too seek to have control in the world, it's a built in safety survival method.

OP, does she get enough opportunity to decompress and unmask, each day? I would be careful to position it as something entirely seperate from the lies, but maybe adding in time and resources after school each day for her to either get sensory stuff or avoid it (depending on if she is over- or under-stimated), could help to stabilise her overall? You can look in the Baker Ross catalogue online for SEN/sensory toys and equipment for ideas - if she needs less stimulation maybe a blackout tent and silence, if she needs more (I think this is less likely) a selection of stimming gadgets and toys may suit her, or pillow punching, rough and tumble, play on outside play equipment etc.

@wowokay are you familiar with autism? An autistic child will not know that lies have an emotional impact on other humans or that they have real consequences. If anyone tells her Mummy might go to jail, especially because of her, she will be traumatised for life. She will not ‘hear’ or process that information in the way you intend it to. That is not the right approach for dealing with an autistic child. Autism is complex and requires careful and sensitive support. The OP has done a brilliant job of parenting.

I agree with this. I thought it was interesting that she said she thought it was expected that she keep up with the lies in the safeguarding meetings, like that was what they wanted to hear from her. A neurodivergent child, prone to black and white thinking, would likely take that standpoint.

Same with the comment about having “all the power” in the household now.

As awful as this situation is for OP, at the root of it all is a very sad and miserable child. That’s what started all this. Neurodivergence goes some way to explaining why she’s so unhappy in the first place, and why she started making these bizarre allegations in the first place.

She kept looking at me for reassurance when they were asking her questions and I had to ask her not to look at me as I was worried the police would take that as she was scared to speak infront of me.

I felt sad reading this. She needs you to be her safe person @IWantOut29. She knows she’s in over her head. I think you need to start prioritising giving your daughter the love, reassurance and security she needs in these situations, instead of worrying that the police are going to cart you off, because they aren’t.

The ‘I have the power’ comment is revealing. It’s very manipulative behaviour, with her responding to criticism by deflecting blame onto others and casting herself in the role of victim. Even now she’s getting the ‘poor little girl’ treatment. It makes you wonder how much of the distress she’s showing is actually genuine tbh. The hot/cold treatment of her brother is also concerning.

Based on what you’ve said, and it’s probably because of what she’s witnessed in terms of relationship dynamics, she considers power to be the ability to abuse and victimize. Right now she’s young, but what happens when she’s older and this behaviour has become more sophisticated?

I agree with this. I thought it was interesting that she said she thought it was expected that she keep up with the lies in the safeguarding meetings, like that was what they wanted to hear from her. A neurodivergent child, prone to black and white thinking, would likely take that standpoint.

There's a huge overlap in the presentation of traumatised children and children who are neurodiverse, and sometimes both are in the mix. Both can make it difficult for children to tell the truth or to understand the potential impact of them lying, want to say what they thing people want to hear etc.

If your CAMHS have a neurodevelopment unit they'll be able to do a full assessment and start to unpick what's underlying it all. At the moment there's a question over whether your DD is neurodiverse and there is known trauma - I'd look at parenting strategies for trauma (therapeutic parenting, PACE) which will also help if your child is neurodiverse because they focus on building relationship secondary to behaviour management and are about safety, security and connection.