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To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

1000 replies

TooBigForMyBoots · 18/01/2024 23:35

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

OP posts:
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Theinnocenteyeballsinthesky · 20/01/2024 13:32

Seasmoke7 · 20/01/2024 13:24

As far as I can tell, most GC people absolutely believe in gender stereotypes they just insist they're immutable biological sex differences instead.

Then you fundamentally don’t understand what being GC is

men should be able to dress however they please - dresses, skirts, heels, make up, long hair, tutu whatever. They can do any role they like, call themselves whatever they want. I grew up in 70s/80s - as a teenager nearly all my male friends wore make up & clothes seem as stereotypically female. Be gender non conforming men!! More power to your elbow! It doesn’t however make them women

Rainbowshit · 20/01/2024 13:34

Seasmoke7 · 20/01/2024 13:24

As far as I can tell, most GC people absolutely believe in gender stereotypes they just insist they're immutable biological sex differences instead.

Oh dear. The whole point of being gender critical is to criticise gender stereotypes. It's gender ideology that reinforces gender stereotypes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2024 13:36

Gender stereotypes

Wearing pretty dresses
Watching action films
Playing with dolls
Crying when upset
Not crying when upset
Being a football fan

Not gender stereotypes

Having a vagina, uterus, ovaries, cervix
Producing ova if all is well, at certain times

Having a penis, prostate, testes
Producing sperm if all is well, at certain times

DewHopper · 20/01/2024 13:39

Seasmoke7 · 20/01/2024 13:24

As far as I can tell, most GC people absolutely believe in gender stereotypes they just insist they're immutable biological sex differences instead.

This is flat out wrong and you know it! It's the crazy TRAs who are so wedded to 1950's stereotypes that they think if a little boy picks up a pink teddy bear or a doll then he need to transition.

See Susie Green for proof of this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2024 13:42

Uniquely female experiences

Pregnancy, childbirth, periods, miscarriages, abortion, menopause

Common female experiences which happen to very many women (mix of sex based and gendered expectations)

Sexual harassment, experiencing sexism and misogyny, pregnancy, childbirth, periods, female infertility, abortion, miscarriages, menopause, doing most of the housework

Non female experiences

Having a penis, an erection, ejaculation.

ubiquity · 20/01/2024 14:01

This thread has become just another one where posters are shouting in the wind instead of trying to engage in constructive dialogue.

I'm out.

Wadermellone · 20/01/2024 14:05

ubiquity · 20/01/2024 14:01

This thread has become just another one where posters are shouting in the wind instead of trying to engage in constructive dialogue.

I'm out.

Not they aren’t.

They have directly posted to you and entered a debate with you. You have avoided answering them and posting something irrelevant to what they asked.

You don’t want to discuss. You want to berate women, tell them how they are wrong, insult them, accuse them of bigotry, blame them for the Tories getting elected and anytime they challenge that you have no answer.

If you can’t back up your own argument, it’s ok to say that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2024 14:21

Well said @Wadermellone

sanluca · 20/01/2024 14:33

No-one is shutting you up or scaring you. The idea is simply to be more critical of what you read and share. It doesn't mean you can only have a certain viewpoint or share particular things - just be more choosy about it.

I find rape threats quite intimidating, even if they are done anonymously on X. Being called bigots, homophobic, transphobic and a Karen is not nice, when all you are doing is saying men shouldn't be allowed to play in womens sports. But it does lose its impact. Now I know transphobic means I am pro women and I hit a nerve.

I am also now quite amused you assume I don't read and do any critical thinking. I actually can look past the person and engage in the argument. I am not sure you can and are too wary of intimidation by association to actually be able to read and engage in a variety of viewpoints

Rainbowshit · 20/01/2024 14:35

@Wadermellone 👏 👏

Very well said.

Helleofabore · 20/01/2024 14:41

Teddleshon · 20/01/2024 09:27

The label “far right” has become utterly meaningless, it is so wrongly applied and overly used it’s a joke.

I have seen so many people called ‘far right’ when they are not. It really is a much over used term so that it is indeed meaningless.

I always ask people now what they mean by ‘far right’ because often it means centre or centre-right. Or it means ‘I don’t agree with that group’. Sadly, it also can mean ‘I have been told by someone on social media that the person is far right.’

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 20/01/2024 14:41

Seasmoke7 · 20/01/2024 13:24

As far as I can tell, most GC people absolutely believe in gender stereotypes they just insist they're immutable biological sex differences instead.

Your understanding must be sorely deficient then, as this is a shocking misrepresentation of GC thinking.

Apart from anything else, how have you managed to miss the significant number of GC women who are butch lesbians? How do you reckon they believe in/conform to gender stereotypes?

And really, I’d say it’s people on your side who are the most attached to gender stereotypes.

Not just because you think person performing femininity = woman, or woman = person performing femininity.

And person performing masculinity = man, or man = person performing masculinity.

But also because in demanding that female people give up rights and protections we’ve fought long and hard for in order to benefit a tiny number of male people, at our own expense, you’re following the time honoured pattern of patriarchal male supremacist thinking.

Male people are the humans who matter, female people are just here to facilitate those male lives, and aren’t entitled to view our own lives as being of equal significance and worth as male ones. According to people like you, we’re here to #BeKind, put others first, think of the poor “vulnerable” males’ feelings ahead of our own (and sod our own vulnerability!), and negate our own needs.

This is what you promote. Absolute conformity with that stereotype.

The real gender non conformity is women saying no to all that. We are entitled to prioritise ourselves, put our own needs first (because no one else will!), think of our own feelings and safety, and yes, even be unkind to those who treat us so very badly, from a position of far greater power and privilege than we can even dream of.

Women being selfish. Putting ourselves first, after century upon century of oppression, violence and abuse from men (male people). Breaking down those stereotypical expectations placed upon us.

Refusing to be the eternal nurturer to the world of men; refusing to mother anyone but our own children.

Shock, horror! Pass Seasmoke7 the smelling salts! The women are revolting; whatever next!

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 20/01/2024 14:44

Helleofabore · 20/01/2024 14:41

I have seen so many people called ‘far right’ when they are not. It really is a much over used term so that it is indeed meaningless.

I always ask people now what they mean by ‘far right’ because often it means centre or centre-right. Or it means ‘I don’t agree with that group’. Sadly, it also can mean ‘I have been told by someone on social media that the person is far right.’

It really is meaningless. Makes me think of that meme on Twitter/X: “everyone I don't like is Hitler”.

Pathetic, and actually insulting to the real victims of the real far right.

sanluca · 20/01/2024 14:50

I am assuming what is meant:

all of the leading GC organisations supported attacks on Gillick competence
The lawsuits that children cannot consent to puberty blockers or cross sex hormones that will render them infertile, give them brittle bones and lower their IQ because children cannot understand the consequences and what they are giving up.

cosy up to anti-abortionists
No idea

attack LGBT charities
The lawsuit against Stonewall by a lesbian for providing advice to hound her out of a job for tweeting about the public consultation on self id

attack rape crisis
The lawsuit against a rape crisis center for not providing single sex therapy groups for women, whilst providing single sex therapy groups for men and specific groups for trans people. And the ET against another rape crisis center for hounding someone out of a job for asking questions how to answer the question a woman had if she could count on a woman as therapist

How can anybody say any of these cases are wrong and shouldn't happen

Helleofabore · 20/01/2024 15:09

ubiquity · 20/01/2024 11:50

Why isn’t the onus on Labour to get their message that women’s spaces should only be for biological women, out there?

They have.

Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories?CMP=share_btn_tw

You have repeated this a few times now.

Can you now point to the moment that Starmer had clarified what a biological woman is, considering last year he was very clear that people with a GRC are to be treated as the sex they have identified as?

Because he had left this hanging and without this very important clarification, the sentences you keep posting are meaningless for single sex provision.

Helleofabore · 20/01/2024 15:21

Oh. I see I have asked the question already that had been asked and that it seems that the person being questioned has flounced.

Maybe having it pointed out that there is a significant context to the background of what they believed was such a great support to their argument and they didn’t know this was too much.

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/01/2024 15:23

I didn't leave the left, it left me.
No it didn't. Its still here fighting for women's rights. Particularly our left wing GC feminists. And the Morning Star.

What has happened is the Right have used this issue as a wedge by amplifying some voices while ignoring others, forced teaming and mangling the meaning of GC to encompass the Tories, Taliban, DT, Lozza Fox , GBN and the Catholic church.

OP posts:
Rainbowshit · 20/01/2024 15:25

While Labour still allows their female politicians to be abused by the bearded woke bros with unfounded allegations I do not trust anything they say on this topic.

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/01/2024 15:26

Seasmoke7 · 20/01/2024 13:24

As far as I can tell, most GC people absolutely believe in gender stereotypes they just insist they're immutable biological sex differences instead.

Then you are another who doesn't understand what GC really means. And as you can see on this thread, you are not alone.

OP posts:
pikkumyy77 · 20/01/2024 15:36

Its not forced teaming—the entire hysterical tempest in a teapot is a fake cause of action by the far right. The fact that all these mumsnetters on the progressive/left end of the spectrum have become enraged enough to spend their limited political snd cultural capital attacking random trans people instead of working for actual human rights issues is the whole point of the exercise.

Every time these supposed activists focus on starmer or stupid phrases like “adult human female” or whatever other shibboleth is being touted libs of tik tok , Chris Rufo, various other (to you all) behind the scene paid rightist agitators lean back snd smile. Job well done!

The trans panic is nothing more than the gay panic , the satanic panic, the trafficking Panic, Q anon etc… that gets the punters riled up so someone can pick their pocket or corral their votes. It is, in its own way, an affinity scam.

Rainbowshit · 20/01/2024 15:39

pikkumyy77 · 20/01/2024 15:36

Its not forced teaming—the entire hysterical tempest in a teapot is a fake cause of action by the far right. The fact that all these mumsnetters on the progressive/left end of the spectrum have become enraged enough to spend their limited political snd cultural capital attacking random trans people instead of working for actual human rights issues is the whole point of the exercise.

Every time these supposed activists focus on starmer or stupid phrases like “adult human female” or whatever other shibboleth is being touted libs of tik tok , Chris Rufo, various other (to you all) behind the scene paid rightist agitators lean back snd smile. Job well done!

The trans panic is nothing more than the gay panic , the satanic panic, the trafficking Panic, Q anon etc… that gets the punters riled up so someone can pick their pocket or corral their votes. It is, in its own way, an affinity scam.

Ooh filling up my bingo card nicely.

You do realise that females are being raped in prisons, hospitals, refuges where males should have no place right?

You do realise that males are taking female sporting prizes and sporting scholarships right?

Can you not recognise that these things are undermining female equality, female safety, female dignity and privacy? We are not going to stop speaking out about them because MRAs label us as "hysterical". I

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 20/01/2024 15:43

Rainbowshit · 20/01/2024 15:39

Ooh filling up my bingo card nicely.

You do realise that females are being raped in prisons, hospitals, refuges where males should have no place right?

You do realise that males are taking female sporting prizes and sporting scholarships right?

Can you not recognise that these things are undermining female equality, female safety, female dignity and privacy? We are not going to stop speaking out about them because MRAs label us as "hysterical". I

Unfortunately those things don't matter because its the insignificant type of women being harmed, you know those afab ones ( i hate that phrase but biological is now being colonised)

CeeCeeBloom · 20/01/2024 15:44

pikkumyy77 · 20/01/2024 15:36

Its not forced teaming—the entire hysterical tempest in a teapot is a fake cause of action by the far right. The fact that all these mumsnetters on the progressive/left end of the spectrum have become enraged enough to spend their limited political snd cultural capital attacking random trans people instead of working for actual human rights issues is the whole point of the exercise.

Every time these supposed activists focus on starmer or stupid phrases like “adult human female” or whatever other shibboleth is being touted libs of tik tok , Chris Rufo, various other (to you all) behind the scene paid rightist agitators lean back snd smile. Job well done!

The trans panic is nothing more than the gay panic , the satanic panic, the trafficking Panic, Q anon etc… that gets the punters riled up so someone can pick their pocket or corral their votes. It is, in its own way, an affinity scam.

🤨🙄

What exactly do you mean by "limited political snd cultural capital" @pikkumyy77 ?

CeeCeeBloom · 20/01/2024 15:45

Unfortunately those things don't matter because its the insignificant type of women being harmed, you know those afab ones ( i hate that phrase but biological is now being colonised)

This! Well said @BaronessEllarawrosaurus

Theinnocenteyeballsinthesky · 20/01/2024 15:47

And for the elevntybillionth time the issue is not trans people, the issue is the removal of women’s rights to facilitate men

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