To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

Thisss 👏🏻👏🏻

So now you have been attacked?

So you can name call and patronise, insult and never have any of it pointed out where you have done so? Otherwise it is an ‘attack’.

The hypocrisy of your posts are quite remarkable.

I’ll tell you what the far right and TRAs have in common

the only two groups I have come across that cover their faces, wear all black and scream at people holding peaceful meetings

And both are detrimental to women's rights.

The Tories have their own cabal of genderists as do all the parties and the more reality aligned in the party were slow to consider this an issue at all. Probably because for the longest time it was mostly left wing feminists and lesbians pointing out there was a problem and because 'wimmin's issues'.

I think Keira Bell followed by prisons, schools and sports woke up all but the most committed TRAs in the party and even some of those (Mordaunt) toned it down a bit because when it boils down to it Tories can usually be relied on to be party first.

I don't think the Tories as a whole deliberately fucked women on this one issue though I appreciate it could be a distinction without a difference. This all started way back with Labour and the train wreck that is the GRA and to a lesser extent unforeseen complications and contradictions with the EqA.

What happened in the intervening years following Labour losing the next election to the Tory/Lib coalition is what could be termed as a long march through institutions.

Having got the GRA through the activists turned their attention to the third sector, to quasi government orgs and think tanks, to educational settings, to feminist organisations, to local government, to grass roots campaign groups and to HR departments everywhere. This list isn't exhaustive and I think we all now know thanks to the Denton's document and other evidence how it worked.

I don't think most of the Tories saw this coming and probably not most of the politicians in other parties (bar a few who definitely colluded with activists over the years) either until suddenly it was a fait accompli and was presented to them with a nice bow as the next frontier of progressive human rights.

Since then we've had roughly 5 years of insane virtue signalling from hard of thinking MPs trying to square that circle- yes some Tory MPs included.

Currently there's a back tracking underway from the two main parties. Neither whom are doing a great job of it. Truth is, it's a gigantic mess to sort out that's been at least 2 decades in the making and decent politicians, if there is such a thing, majorly took their eye off the ball.

Both main parties to an extent would rather sit back and let women (and some men) exhaust money and energy battling it out in the courts and sometime in the future both parties will try to claim these victories for common sense as somehow their own.

That ended up being a bit long but is roughly my take on how we got here and I don't think it's possible to blame it fully on either Conservative or Labour-although Labour just about tip the balance for me personally due to the GRA.

Very good post @OvaHere

I agree with almost everything you say @OvaHere. The Tories tip the balance for me because they're the government and have been for a long time.

I can't fight the government of 20 years ago. They're long gone. I can't fight the future government. I have no idea what it will look like. I can only fight the government of the day for women's rights.

That's fine. I accept some people will tip the other way and have good reasons for it.

I agree we can only practically deal with the government of the day.

the Morning Star

😂

That seems to echo a lot of what posters have been saying here.

It is a pointless exercise to keep the discussion focused on mindless vilifying of the Tory party and only them. We need to work with both to fix this mess. And to be very honest about the history and how we got here so that the cycle doesn’t continue.

When a lie that is codified in law, that men can say they are women as and when they want to be, there are no actual women's rights.

That's the crux of the matter.

Have you missed the work that Kemi has been trying to pull together

Badenoch is positioning herself to be the next Tory leader. Nothing more:nothing less.

It’s handy she demonstrates she thinks the way to do it is to clarify the legal position of women.
The other parties don’t seem as sure! Spoken as a more natural green/sdp voter.

I don’t disagree with you.

However, she is the Equalities Minister and she is currently trying to get a solution in place.

Both can be true.

I mean it's just so tribal and fails to understand the nuance of what has caused men to be seen as women for the purpose of them being able to have fairly unfettered access to women's single sex spaces in the course of the current governments time in power to say it is the fault of the current government alone.

If the OP and other posters would even acknowledge that the legislation which allowed this to happen in the first place was introduced by the Labour Party then I would have more sympathy with their position on this, but they won't. Everything is the fault of the Tories even when it really isn't. These are really unnecessary lies.

You talk about the fact that it is the current government who can change things and yes that is right, but, in the run up to a general election it is not unreasonable to want to know what the party who introduced the legislation will do about it when they get into power.

This is a thread about media manipulation, I see that from the left wing mainstream press, from the Guardian to the BBC .They won't even accurately, most of the time ,report the sex of offenders who identify as trans and tie themselves in knots. The Guardian is particularly bad, with Owen Jones that most the time I find it unreadable. The fact that we can't get the truth out of left wing press (or the BBC ffs) is absolute insanity.

There is manipulation on this thread which is trying to suggest that anyone who is looking beyond the media, at what is actually happening and has happened, must be a Tory supporter. I'm not a Tory voter, I just want more from Labour. They enacted this legislation, what will they do to address it if they win the election this year?

'Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.'

I'm not a feminist and that's my view in a nutshell.

Yes, the manipulation by posters on this thread to frame women as 'progressing RW media' or being influenced by far right media is very clear. It has been from the start. There is no credible evidence being presented, it is really all about this tribal purity and this totalitarianism. It is about trying to also position mainstream media outlets as being as ideologically driven as the people lecturing women on 'progressing RW media' or being influenced.

The statement that Julie Bindel is now right wing is absolutely outstanding as an example of this. It is completely deficient in rational thinking. And bizarrely the poster who posted that seems to pride themselves on their 'critical thinking' abilities. It seems yet another example of the misuse of words. Of claiming to be something which there is absolutely no evidence of in their posts.

I did notice that no one who has been lecturing women on reading and posting supposed 'RW' media has supplied any suggestions on what mainstream media has successfully progressed women and this issue that IS safe for us to read and post to highlight the issues.

I suspect it is because there is no mainstream media that gives balanced coverage of this issue that will be acceptable to those patronising and lecturing us.

I couldn’t agree more Helleofabore. The labelling of people such as Julie Bindel, Brendan O’Neill etc as “right wing” is ultimately going to massively backfire on the TRA. They have to rely on a complete obfuscation of language as otherwise any defence utterly crumbles in the face of logic and reality.

I will criticise and hammer any government that erodes women's rights.

I haven't told any lies!

I don't have any faith, or expectation in any political party when it comes to protecting people's rights and it seems pretty obvious that they've all only started making noise about this because the next election is going to be close enough that fringe issues* might help them win

*politicians perception rather than statement of importance to society

You haven't said a single word about the FACT that all of the erosion of women's rights in this country was enabled by legislation that was enacted by the Labour Party. You have blamed everything on the current government.

You may not have directly told lies but you are trying to pin all of the blame of the current lack of single sex spaces on the current government, which is simply untrue.

And this thread has many eyes from many spaces. Apparently, Everything is Darkness. It is remarkable how women get around the internet isn't it?

Let me correct that for you: I haven't told any lies and I am holding the current government responsible for their erosion of women's rights.

You are refusing to acknowledge Labour's responsibility in this.

THEY created the legal fiction that a man can have female as his SEX on his passport.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact?

How do you think this is helpful? You want Labour to be in government after the general election as do I. It is highly likely that they will be.

The difference between us is that I want the future Labour government to commit to single sex spaces excluding these legal women (who are male).

They created the mess why shouldn't they commit to resolving it?

And this thread has many eyes from many spaces. Apparently, Everything is Darkness. It is remarkable how women get around the internet isn't it?

Oh yes, I see the Poundshop Mean Girls online are watching.