Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

I think Roberta was correctly sexing @bellinisurge

No I don’t think they are…I think there’s a small group of women that tend to be quite obsessive and take over any thread relating to trans people. No-one dares argue.

In real life, not many people care.

As another archaeologist, I can tell you that the inability to determine sex from skeletal remains is overwhelmingly down to state of preservation and completeness, and that you can’t, in adulthood, muddle a male and a female pelvis. There are always outliers, but a well-preserved skeleton with the diagnostic elements present usually offers plenty of evidence of the individual’s sex.

It would be so much easier to just focus on biology and biological sex.

The concept of 'gender' has become too subjective and there's just no scientific backing or definition.

I think the difficulty is partly that when this all blew up, women were ready and willing to offer a compromise ie we respect your gender identity but feel single sex provision is essential so how about special provision...but what followed was death threats, rape threats, accusations of being a bigot, transphobic etc. And as always happens when a woman gets angry and defends her boundaries womens' reactions to that were then branded aggressive and unreasonable. And so you now have a bunch of women who, quite rightly, no longer give a fuck about being reasonable and accommodating and will defend womens' single sex spaces fiercely. Being kind and reasonable got us nowhere.

"In real life, not many people care."
Until they find out that Dave insists he can provide intimate care to their granny and she's a bigot for saying No

I avoid the feminism board like the plague as somebody with friends and family members who have transitioned, I just find it full of bigots.

What makes you think that FWR posters don't have friends and family members who have transitioned? It's been extremely popular amongst young teenagers over the past few years. Many, of us have gender questioning children and often this has led us to learn more about the ideology and how our children might be affected. The unknown risks of puberty blockers, would be one example. The known health risks of chest binding, is another example.

This is predominantly a website for mothers. We have children growing up with this ideology being taught to them in schools as fact. That's incorrect and it needs putting right.

Women are more likely to be concerned about safeguarding too, which is why keeping our single sex spaces for females only is so important.

Funny that you think we have no close relationships with transgender people. What an assumption to make. Perhaps come and talk to us about it FWR and find out a little bit more? Or not, up to you.

I do not believe a person can change sex or that males declaring themselves women magically change into women.

I'm not "trans exclusionary", nor are the majority of GC feminists, however, because I believe that trans-identifying females belong in feminism and women's spaces. I'm MALE exclusionary with regard to women's spaces, groups and sports.

If that makes me a TERF, then yes, I am a TERF

Me too

From this thread and others and other interactions in this debate, I am now convinced that even gender ideologues don't believe gender ideology.

They just can't explain their own beliefs. They don't appear to have critiqued their own beliefs. They can't answer questions or critiques of their own beliefs.

If they actually believed in what they were saying, they could do all of this.

There are plenty of people with beliefs I don't share. I don't agree with the nationalism of the SNP or Plaid Cymru. But they have well thought through coherent, rational beliefs I can engage with and respect.

Gender ideology and its proponents simply cannot do that. When you have such shallow beliefs that you can't defend, I don't think you can really believe it yourself.

Most don't realise the privileged position they are in so this shit doesn't affect them.

Be thankful that you haven't been raped and can't access biological women only support (looking at you Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre) or being able to request one without being called a bigot, or are in prison with penised males, or have one take a place on a sport with all the physiological advantages they possess being, you know, male. I could go on.

I care about those women.

"What makes you think that FWR posters don't have friends and family members who have transitioned?*
Just because someone has a friend and/or family member that may have transitioned doesn't mean they can't be a bigot?!
Which is what you seem to be implying.
That's as ridiculous as saying "because someone has a black friend or family member they can't possibly be racist.

Gender ideology and its proponents simply cannot do that. When you have such shallow beliefs that you can't defend, I don't think you can really believe it yourself.

Exactly. It's the sheer dishonesty I can't stand. Look at the refusal to even attempt to explain what they mean on this thread - because they know full well they can't but pretend otherwise.

Believe what you like but at least be honest about it.

Top bit supposed to be a quote 🙄

Me too, as well, also.

Also a TERF if it’s what they say it is

People can’t change sex

Well, I won’t just post and run but there are lots of threads that are very transphobic stating that they will never accept that somebody biologically born a male, can then become female. But I can. I do accept people are born into the wrong bodies and I do believe that they have the right to transition. I will happily use their preferred pronouns. I have no issues with sharing public toilets with them. I have no issue should any of my children feel they weren’t happy with their gender. I have family members who are 100% happier through transitioning and seeing their mental health improve is wonderful. So I do take issue with those who cannot accept it. I’m not going to keep arguing about it (because I know I won’t change any minds, just as mine won’t be changed). But I stand by my opinion that mumsnet is full of TERFs.

Why don't you explain to me if you think trans people have the right to live in the gender they identify as and what rights exactly you think they should have, if any?

I don't believe in "gender" as distinct from sex, if you're asking if I think they have the right to express themselves as they wish and be protected from discrimination and harassment, then I do.

In what sense is it ‘perfectly acceptable’ to allow men (every man, as no one can tell if a man is trans or not) into women’s toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, sports etc?

Or to convince children they were ‘born in the wrong body’, or give powerful drugs and body-modification surgery to teenagers?

Far from acceptable in my view. So call me a terf all you like.

Well that's something you don't hear every day, thank you 😅

I know that if I saw a man (trans or otherwise) in the ladies loos, I'd tell him to sling his hook and I probably wouldn't be polite about it either. So yes, I do think a trans man is at risk there. Then, there's the possibility that someone who is terrified of men is in there. It's not unreasonable to think they could lash out.

The facilities at my nearest hospital are great. 15 cubicles in a horseshoe shape, all self contained and situated in the main reception.

To be fair, a recent survey concluded that some 30% of people thought a transwoman was female.

Even the MSM get confused!

Most people who 'don't care' haven't actually thought through the consequences, and would be shocked if they understood how many of the rights they take for granted are being eroded by fetishistic men.

I do accept people are born into the wrong bodies and I do believe that they have the right to transition

Could you please explain how that works biologically?

I do accept people are born into the wrong bodies

You "believe" not "accept". It's your view based on your ideology. Not mine.

"I don't believe in "gender" as distinct from sex, if you're asking if I think they have the right to express themselves as they wish and be protected from discrimination and harassment, then I do."

Do you think men should be in women's single sex spaces and sports. Because that's the issue. Not "can men wear dresses and eyeliner"

I don't care if someone thinks me a TERF.

Or even right wing, I mean it is all a bit playground like and I left that many years ago.