Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

yes, thinking that trans women aren't women is a popualr view

It's unsurprising that biological reality is a popular view on a majority female parenting site.

They should have, and do, have the same rights as everyone else. This includes, where services or facilities, or sports, or whatever, are separated by sex, to use those appropriate for their sex. As OBSERVED and recorded at birth. Not “assigned”. Further, they have the right to free speech but not to compel other people to use speech that they find inaccurate.

what they don’t have is the right to compel other people to see them as they see themselves.

I'm know I should just keep my beak out but I can't scroll past when I see the skeleton sexing statements. I live with an archaeologist and they cringe at this argument. It's been explained to me that humans are mildly sexually dimorphic in terms of skeleton size and secondary sexual characteristics, so lots of overlap on that bell curve. Lots of skeletons are therefore recorded as indeterminate.

I think this is one of the gender critical arguments that needs to be put to bed. It's not adding anything to the conversation and technically incorrect.

Sorry for the post derailing. As you were 😂

I believe that gender is increasingly being used as a tool to oppress women.

I do not believe any human can change sex and I think women should have single sex spaces and sports (away from all males no matter their gender identity).

I believe people should be free to wear and love who they want. I do not think that trans people should be discriminated against in access to housing or employment but I don't think they should have access to spaces reserved for the sex that they are not.

Pretty much sums up the FWR board!

Why don't you explain to me if you think trans people have the right to live in the gender they identify as and what rights exactly you think they should have, if any?
They have the right to express themselves as they please, dress as they please and so on, same as everybody else, and to do that without harassment, just like everyone else. They have the rights to all spaces and services based on their sex, just like everyone else. They have rights to any trans specific services that are created too. Just as women have rights to sex specific services for females.

They do not have the right, based on their gender identity, to enter sex segregated spaces, sports and services. Because the risk or inequality to women of this, are based on sex and not on gender identity. Because sex and gender identity are distinct. They are not interchangeable.

Can you explain what part is bigotry?

I have black friends, but that doesn't make me a non-bigot, so I don't know why everybody is citing their trans friends as proof that they are not transphobic.

I'm a so called TERF if believing than no one in the world can change sex, that I will not and should not have to use a persons chosen pronouns and will bow to societal pressure to do, makes me one!

You CANNOT be assigned the wrong gender at birth. No one does that.
Sex is observed and recorded.

A person’s sex is determined at conception. And no, no one is intersex; dsd’s are sex-specific.

And I'll bet this almond croissant I'm about to eat that that will be the extent of your argument. No explanation of what is actually bigoted, in your opinion.

I'm on FWR and I say I'm not

So you're incorrect to say that

lol
Oh, and I didn't say all of FWR was ,- of course not all are.
Just a lot on there proudly say they are and you're being really obtuse if you're trying to pretend otherwise.
Hell, a few have even popped their head in here to announce themselves as such.
So, yeah - lol is all I can be arsed to say to that.

Yep, posters rushing in, shouting "bigot" and "transphobe" and then fleeing, because they can't defend their argument that trans people are not allowed to exist.

Yes AccidentallyWesAnderson....@Scutterbug can you explain to me what a woman is without referencing biology or socially constructed gender stereotypes ie hair, dress, names, mannerisms etc?

"I'm know I should just keep my beak out but I can't scroll past when I see the skeleton sexing statements. I live with an archaeologist and they cringe at this argument. It's been explained to me that humans are mildly sexually dimorphic in terms of skeleton size and secondary sexual characteristics, so lots of overlap on that bell curve. Lots of skeletons are therefore recorded as indeterminate.

I think this is one of the gender critical arguments that needs to be put to bed. It's not adding anything to the conversation and technically incorrect."

"Mildly" 😂😂😂😂 The blessed Alice Roberts believes there are 5 sexes. So forgive me if I don't accept the word of an archeologist as speaking for the whole of humanity.
I'm sure plenty of skeletons are hard to work out. What if there was still some DNA on them. Would it be difficult then?

Yep, posters rushing in, shouting "bigot" and "transphobe" and then fleeing, because they can't defend their argument that trans people are not allowed to exist.

Never changes!

Lots of skeletons are therefore recorded as indeterminate.

But skeletons no longer contain the organs (uterus etc) so of course you can't tell their sex

It’s a put down or attempt at a slur in many cases although some reclaim it which is also fine

I prefer to talk about biological facts and single sex spaces, rather than ‘terf’

And this from pp I'm pro-women's rights, I believe sex matters and is immutable

It's been explained to me that humans are mildly sexually dimorphic

Humans are sexually dimorphic. The end.

But many posters openly say they are anti trans and deny the possibility of a person being assigned the wrong gender at birth

So you understand biology?

A baby is born as male or female based on its chromosomes and evidenced by its Sex organs.

They are not 'assigned' the wrong sex/gender at birth

A bio male cannot be female.
A bio female cannot be male.
Either sex can be either gender if they choose. A bio male can be a woman (yes, a transwoman but still a woman. A bio female can be a (trans)man. That's fine by me.

The part that concerns me is penis owners in female spaces. Everyone deserves to pee in peace. The trans man cannot safely use the gents and should not be using the ladies. There are no facilities in the gents for a menstruating trans man but they can't use the ladies safely. Not to mention places like changing rooms, showers, hospital wards etc.

As long as there is a solution where nobody is at risk or feels uncomfortable then I can quite happily live and let live.

Slurs against mumsnet are proof that people really don't like it when women talk to each other.

I worry about erasing the discourse on what it means to be a biological woman. My lived experience includes menstrual cycles, being less strong than men, pregnancy, breastfeeding, menopause. Yes, not all women have these experiences but they are all related to being a woman. I want these aspects acknowledged and I want a language for it.

If even saying this makes me a terf than so be it.

If even saying this makes me a terf than so be it.

It does, but so are most people. Extremist gender identity beliefs are fringe beliefs.

"The part that concerns me is penis owners in female spaces. Everyone deserves to pee in peace. The trans man cannot safely use the gents and should not be using the ladies. There are no facilities in the gents for a menstruating trans man but they can't use the ladies safely. Not to mention places like changing rooms, showers, hospital wards etc. "

Why can't a trans identified woman (a transman) use tbe women's loos safely?

Why don't you explain to me if you think trans people have the right to live in the gender they identify as and what rights exactly you think they should have, if any?

They can live and dress however they like. They can feel and identify as whatever or whoever they want.

But where services or spaces are specific to males or females then the biological sex determines their rights, just as for the rest of us.